Episode #93: Raising Voices, Spirits, and Data through the SingWell Project: In conversation with Dr. Arla Good and Dr. Jessica Richardson

Welcome to the Aphasia Access Aphasia Conversations Podcast. I'm Ellen Bernstein-Ellis, Program Specialist at the Aphasia Treatment Program at Cal State East Bay in the Department of Speech, Language and Hearing Sciences, and a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's hosts for an episode featuring Dr. Arla Good and Dr. Jessica Richardson.        We will discuss the SingWell Project and the role of aphasia choirs from a bio-psychosocial model. Today's shows features the following gap areas from the Aphasia Access State of Aphasia Report authored by Nina Simmons-Mackie:  Gap area #3: insufficient availability of communication intervention for people with aphasia, or the need for services.  Gap area #8: insufficient attention to depression and low mood across the continuum of care.  Gap area #5: insufficient attention to life participation across the continuum of care. Guest Bios: Dr. Arla Good is the Co-director and Chief Researcher of the SingWell Project, an initiative uniting over 20 choirs for communication challenges around the world. Dr. Good is a member of the Science of Music, Auditory Research and Technology or SMART lab at Toronto Metropolitan University, formerly Ryerson University. Much of her work over the last decade has sought to identify and optimize music based interventions that can contribute to psychological and social well-being in a variety of different populations.  Dr. Jessica Richardson is an associate professor and speech-language pathologist at the University of New Mexico in the Department of Speech and Hearing Sciences, and the Center for Brain Recovery and Repair. She is director of the UN M brain scouts lab and the stable and progressive aphasia center or space. Her research interest is recovering from acquired brain injury with a specific focus on aphasia, recovery, and management of primary progressive aphasia. She focuses on innovations in assessment and treatment with a focus on outcome measures that predict real world communication abilities, and life participation. Listener Take-aways In today’s episode you will: Learn about the SingWell Project model of supporting choirs and research around the world Learn which five clinical populations are the initial targets of the SingWell Project Discover how the SingWell Project is challenging the stigma about disability and singing Learn about some of the biopsychosocial measures being used to capture choir outcomes Transcript edited for conciseness Show notes Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  02:58 I'm going to admit that aphasia choirs have long been one of my clinical passions. I'm really excited and honored to host this episode today. I'd like to just start with a question or two that will help our listeners get to know you both a little better. So Arla, is it okay, if I start with you? Would you share what motivated you to focus your research on music-based interventions? Do you have a personal connection to music?   Arla Good  03:29 I feel like I could do a whole podcast on how I ended up in this field.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  03:33 That'd be fun.   Arla Good  03:34 There's just so many anecdotes on how music can be a powerful tool. I've experienced it in my own life, and I've witnessed it in other lives. I'll share one example. My grandfather had aphasia and at my convocation when I was graduating in the Department of Psychology with a BA, despite not being able to communicate and express himself, he sang the Canadian National Anthem, perfect pitch-- all of the words. It's just an accumulation of anecdotes like that, that brought me to study music psychology. And over the course of my graduate studies, I came to see how it can be super beneficial for specific populations like aphasia.    So, I do have a quote from one of our choir participants that really sparked the whole idea of SingWell. It was a Parkinson's choir that we were working with. And she says, “At this point, I don't feel like my Parkinson's defines me as much as it used to. Now that I've been singing with the group for a while, I feel that I'm also a singer who is part of a vibrant community.” And that really just encapsulates what it is and why I'm excited to be doing what I'm doing--  to be bringing more positivity and the identity and strength into these different communities.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  04:49 Yes, the development of positive self-identity in the face of facing adversity is such an important contribution to what we do and thank you for sharing that personal journey. That was really beautiful.  Jessica, I'm hoping to get to hear a little bit about why what your personal connection is to aphasia choirs and music.   Jessica Richardson  05:12 Again, so many things. I grew up in a musical household. Everyone in my family sings and harmonizes and it's just beautiful. But a lot of my motivation for music and groups came from first just seeing groups. So some early experience with groups at the VA. Seeing Dr. Audrey Holland in action, of course, at the University of Arizona-that's where I did my training. Dr. Elman, you, of course, so many great examples that led to the development of lots of groups. We do virtual online groups for different treatments, different therapies. We have space exploration. We have space teams, which is communication partner instruction that's virtual. So we do lots of groups. And of course, we have a neuro choir here in New Mexico. Now, I'm just so excited that there's so much research that's coming out to support it.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  06:03 Jessica, can I just give you a little shout out? Because you were visionary. You actually created these amazing YouTube videos of your choir singing virtually, even before COVID. And you came out with the first virtual aphasia choir. I remember just sitting there and just watching it and being amazed. And little did we know. I guess you knew! Do you want to just take a moment because I want to put those links in our show notes and encourage every listener to watch these beautiful virtual choir songs that you've done. You’ve done two right?   Jessica Richardson  06:44 Yes. And I could not have done it, I need to make sure I give a shout out to my choir director, Nicole Larson, who's now Nicole Larson Vegas. She was an amazing person to work with on those things. She also now has opened a branch neuro choir, just one town over. We're in Albuquerque and she's in Corrales and our members can go to either one. We coordinate our songs.    I'd really like to start coordinating worldwide, Ellen. We can share resources and do virtual choirs worldwide and with Aphasia Choirs Go Global. But I definitely want to give her a shout out. And then of course our members. I mean, they were really brave to do that. Because there was nothing I could point them to online already to say, “Hey, people are doing this. You do it.” So they were really courageous to be some of the first.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  07:36 Do you want to mention the two songs so people know what to look for? And just throw in the name of your choir.   Jessica Richardson  07:42 We're just the UNM neuro choir as part of the UNM Brain Scouts. The first song was The Rose. The second song was This is Me from the Greatest Showman. And the song journal that you could wait for in the future is going to be Don't Give Up On Me by Andy Grammer.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  08:01 Beautiful! I can hardly wait. And there are some endeavors and efforts being made to create these international groups. Thank you for doing a shout out to Aphasia Choirs Go Global, which is a Facebook group to support people who are involved in neuro and aphasia choirs. I'll give a shout out to Bron Jones who helped start it and Alli Talmage from New Zealand who has worked really hard to build a community there. It's been really wonderful to have a place where we can throw out questions to each other and ask for opinions and actually dig into some interesting questions like, “What measures are you using to capture X, Y, or Z?” I think we’ll get to talk about some of that today, actually. So thank you.    I encourage our listeners to listen to those two YouTube videos we'll put in the show notes. But Jessica, I’m going to give you a twofer here. I've been following your amazing work for many years, but the first time I got to meet you in person was at an Aphasia Access Leadership Summit. I wanted to ask you as an Aphasia Access member, if you have any particular Aphasia Access memories that you could share with our listeners?   Jessica Richardson  09:09 Well, it was actually that memory. So, I would say my all-time favorite collection of Aphasia Access moments, really was working with my amazing colleague, Dr. Katerina Haley. She's at UNC Chapel Hil. We were co-program chairs for the Aphasia Access 2017 summit in Florida. The whole summit, I still think back on it and just smile so wide. And you know, we went to the museum, we were at the Aphasia House, just so many wonderful things. All of the round tables and the presentations, they just rocked my world. And it's just something I'm super proud to have been a part of behind the scenes making it happen. And I also remember that you wrote me the nicest note afterwards.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  09:54 It was just because it impacted me, too. Personally, I felt like it just cracked open such a world of being able to have engaging discussions with colleagues. Tom Sather, really named it the other day (at IARC) when he quoted Emile Durkheim’s work on collective effervescence, the sense of being together with a community. I'm seeing Arla, nodding her head too.   Arla Good Yeah, I like that.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis   Yeah, there was a lot of effervescing at these Leadership Summits, and we have one coming up in 2023. I'm really excited about it and hope to get more information out to our listeners about that. So I'll just say stay tuned. And you'll be hearing more, definitely.   I just want to do one more shout out. And that is, you mentioned international collaboration. I'd like to do a quick shout out to Dr. Gillian Velmer who has been doing the International Aphasia Choirs. I’ll gather a couple of links to a couple of songs that she's helped produce with people around the world with aphasia singing together. So there's just some great efforts being done.    That’s why I'm excited about launching into these questions. I want to start with an introduction of SingWell. Arla, would you like to get the ball rolling on that one?   Arla Good  11:09 For sure. SingWell began with my co-director, Frank Russo, and myself being inspired by that quote I shared at the beginning about singing doing something really special for these communities. We applied for a Government of Canada grant and we received what's called a Partnership grant. It really expanded well beyond just me and Frank, and it became a network of over 50 researchers, practitioners, national provincial support organizations, and it continues growing.    It's really about creating a flow of information from academia to the community, and then back to academia. So understanding what research questions are coming up in these communities of interests. And what information can we, as researchers, share with these communities? That’s SingWell, I'll get into the research questions.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  12:03 Let's dive in a little bit deeper. What is SingWell’s primary aim?  That's something you describe really well in an article we'll talk about a little later.   Arla Good  12:15 So our aim is to document, to understand, group singing as a strategy, as a way to address the psychosocial well-being and communication for people who are living with communication challenges. SingWell, we're defining a communication challenge as a condition that affects an individual's ability to produce, perceive or understand speech. We're working with populations like aphasia, but also people living with hearing loss, lung disease, stuttering. I hope, I don't forget anybody. There are five populations. Parkinson's, of course.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  12:53 Perfect. So that's your primary aim. Do you want to speak to any secondary or additional goals for your project?   Arla Good  13:03 The second major pillar of this grant is to advocate and share the information with these communities. So, how can we facilitate the transfer of this knowledge? We've started a TikTok channel, so you can watch videos. We have a newsletter and a website that's continuously being updated with all the new information. We want to develop best practice guides to share with these communities about what we've learned and how these types of choirs can be run. And really, just mobilize the network of partners so that we're ensuring the information is getting to the right community.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  13:35 Wow. Well, I mentioned a moment ago that there's a 2020 article that you wrote with your colleagues, Kreutz, Choma, Fiocco, and Russo that describes the SingWell project protocol. It  lays out your long term goals. Do you want to add anything else to what you've said about where this project is headed?   Arla Good  13:54 Sure, the big picture of this project is that we have a network of choirs that are able to address the needs of these different populations. I want the network to be dense and thriving. The home of the grant is Canada. But of course, we have partners in the states, like Jessica, and in Europe and in New Zealand. So to have this global network of choirs that people can have access to, and to advocate for a social prescription model in healthcare. Have doctors prescribing these choirs, and this network is available for doctors to see, okay, here's the closest choir to you. So, in some ways, this is a third goal of the project is to be building this case for the social prescription of singing.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  14:41 Before we go too much further, I want to acknowledge that you picked a wonderful aphasia lead, Dr. Jessica Richardson. That's your role, right? We haven't given you a chance to explain your role with SingWell. Do you want to say anything about that Jessica?   Jessica Richardson  14:58 Yeah, sure. I'm still learning about my role. Overall, I know theme leaders, in general, were charged with overseeing research directions for their theme. Aphasias, the theme that I'm leader of, and then monitoring progress of research projects and the direction of that. So far, it's mostly involved some advising of team members and reviewing and giving feedback of grant applications. I'm supposed to be doing more on the social and networking end and I hope to be able to make more that more of a priority next year, but I do think this podcast counts. So thank you for that.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  15:33 Well, you did a wonderful presentation. I should be transparent, I was invited to be on the Advisory Committee of SingWell, and I got to hear your first presentation at the first project meeting where each team leader explained their focus and endeavor. I was so excited to hear the way you presented the information on aphasia, because again, we know that for some people, aphasia is not a well-known name or word. And even though this is a very educated group, and I think everybody, all the leaders know about aphasia, but it was nice to see you present and put on the table some of the challenges and importance of doing this research.    One of the things that really attracted me when reading about that 2020 article is that you talk about SingWell having an ability versus disability focus early, Arla, could you elaborate on that?   Arla Good  16:22 Our groups are open to anybody, regardless of their musical, vocal or hearing abilities. And we compare it often to the typical talk-based support groups that focuses on challenges and deficits. Of course, there's a time and place, these can provide a lot of benefit for people living in these communities. So, this isn't a replacement for these types of support groups,  But, singing is a strength-based activity. They're working together to create a beautiful sound and there's often a performance at the end that they're very proud of. We're challenging stigma, especially in a population like aphasia, where it would seem like, oh, you have aphasia, you can't sing? But, of course they can. We’re challenging that stigma of who can sing and who can't sing. We find that it's just so enjoyable for these people to be coming and doing something strength- based and feeling good. Going back to that, quote I said at the beginning, right? To feel like there's more to their identity than a diagnosis. This is what keeps them coming back.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  17:22 Beautifully said, and I can't help but think how that really connects with the life participation approach. There's no one better than Jessica, for me to throw that back out to her, and ask how she sees the connection between that.   Jessica Richardson  17:37 Yes, absolutely. Their focus on ability and fighting loneliness and isolation and on social well-being is right in line with it. Because LPAA is really focusing on reengagement in life, on competence, rather than deficits, on inclusion, and also on raising the status of well-being measures to be just as important as other communication outcomes.    I want to make sure we also bring up something from our Australian and New Zealand colleagues, the living successfully with aphasia framework, because it is also in line with LPAA and SingWell. I can say they have this alternative framework. They also don't want to talk about the deficit or disability. It doesn't try to ignore or even minimize the aphasia, but it emphasizes positive factors, like independence, meaningful relationships, meaningful contributions, like you know that performance. So there's just so much value and so much alignment with what Aphasia Access listeners and members really care about.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  18:44 That's a great transition for what I was thinking about next. I was very excited to see people talking about the 2018 review by Baker, Worrall, Rose and colleagues that identifies aphasia choirs as a level one treatment in the step psychological care model for managing depression in aphasia. So that's really powerful to me, and we're starting to see more research come out looking at the impact of participating in aphasia choirs. I'm really excited to see some of this initial research coming out.    Maybe you can address what some of the gaps in the literature might be when it comes to group singing? And its impact on well-being. Maybe Arla, we can start with that and then Jessica, you can jump in and address specifically communication and aphasia choirs. Arla, do you want to start out?   Arla Good  19:35 This is a very exciting time, like you said, there is research that is starting to come out. People are starting to study choirs as a way of achieving social well-being, psychological well-being and so the field is ripe and ready for some good robust scientific research.    Most of the studies that are coming out have really small sample sizes. It's hard to get groups together, and they often lack comparison groups. So what I think SingWell is going to do is help understand the mechanisms and what is so great about singing and what singing contributes. The other thing I'd like to mention is that with SingWell, our approach is a bit unique compared to what some of the other research researchers are doing, in that we're adopting a very hands-off approach to choir. So we're letting choir directors have the autonomy to organize based on their own philosophies, their expertise, and the context of their choirs. So we call it choir in its natural habitat.   And this is giving us the opportunity to explore group effects. What approach is the choir director taking and what's working, what's not working? And to have this large sample of different types of choirs, we can learn a lot from this number, this type of research project as well.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  20:54 What I really love about that is getting to know some of these wonderful colleagues through Aphasia Choirs Go Global and hearing about what their rehearsals and goals look like. There are some amazing similarities, just like saying, “You're doing that in Hungary? But we're doing that here, too.”  And there are some wonderful differences. I really firmly believe that there are a variety of ways to do this very successfully, just like there are a variety of ways to run successful aphasia groups, but there's going to be some core ingredients that we need to understand better.    Just before I go too far away from this, how about you? Do you want to speak to anything we need to learn in the literature about aphasia choirs?   Jessica Richardson  21:35 Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm saying too much different than Arla. Arla, may want to follow up. But the main gap is that we just don't have enough evidence. And we don't have enough, like she said, solid methodology, high fidelity, to even support its efficacy to convince stakeholders, third party payers, etc. Anecdotal evidence is great, and YouTube videos that we create are also great, but it's not enough. And even more and more choirs popping up around the world, it's not enough.   We need that strong research base to convince the people that need convincing. SingWell is hoping to add to that through its pilot grants, through its methodology that they share for people to use. And I'm hopeful that other organizations, you know, like Aphasia Choirs Go Global, can link up at some point with saying, “Well, I'm excited about communities like that that are also supportive of researching choirs.” Arla, think I saw you're wanting to follow up.   Arla Good  22:31 I just wanted to add to something that Ellen had said about the power and diversity and having these different perspectives. And another goal of SingWell is to create, and it's up on the website already, it's a work in progress, it's going to continue growing, but a menu of options for choir directors who are looking to start a choir like this. Like if you want this kind of goal, here are some tips. So, if it's a social choir, you might want to configure the room in a circle. But if you have musical goals, maybe you want to separate your sopranos, your altos, tenors, and your bass. It’s not one prescribed method. It's a menu of items that we're hoping we can through, this diversity of our network, that we can clarify for people who are trying to start a choir for themselves.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  23:19 I love that because I can hear in my head right now, Aura Kagan saying over and over again that the life participation approach is not a prescriptive approach. But rather, you're always looking at what is the best fit for your needs. Jessica, your head is nodding, so do you want to add anything?   Jessica Richardson  23:37 It's a way to shift your whole entire perspective and your framework. And that's what I love about it.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  23:44 We'll just go back to that 2020 article for a moment because I really liked that article. You and your authors describe four measures of well-being and there are potential neuroendocrinological, that's really a lot of syllables in here, but I'll try to say it again, neuroendocrinological underpinnings,    Arla Good   The hormones---   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis   Oh, that's better, thank you, the hormones, too. Could you just take a moment and please share what these four measures of well-being and their hormonal underpinnings might be?   Arla Good  24:11 For sure. The first one is connection, the connectedness outcome. So we're asking self-report measures of how connected people feel. But we're also measuring oxytocin, which is a hormone that's typically associated with social bonding.    The second measure is stress. And again, we're asking self-report measures, but we're also looking at cortisol, which is a hormone associated with stress.    The third measure is pain. And this one's a little bit more complex, because we're measuring pain thresholds. Really, it sounds scary, but what we do is apply pressure to the finger and people tell us when it feels uncomfortable. So it's actually well before anyone's experiencing pain. But we're thinking that this might be a proxy for beta endorphin release. So that's the underpinning there.    And then the last outcome is mood. This is also a self-report measure. And one of the types of analyses that we're running is we want to see what's contributing to an improved mood. Is it about the cortisol? Is it about just like deep breathing and feeling relaxed? Is it that or is there something special happening when they feel the rush of oxytocin and social connectedness? The jury's still out. These are super preliminary data at this point, especially with oxytocin, there's so much to learn. But those are some of the hormones, the sociobiological underpinnings that we're exploring.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  25:31 That makes for some really exciting research and the way you frame things, SingWell is supporting grants, maybe you could comment on how its biopsychosocial framework influences the methods and outcome measures that you want to adopt.   Arla Good  25:48 Sure, we do provide guidelines and suggestions for measures. Jessica alluded to this. We have it all up on the website, if anyone else wants to run a study like this. And then we have some that we're requiring of any study that's going to be funded through SingWell. And this is so we can address this small sample size problem in the literature. So the grant runs for six more years. It's a seven year grant. And at the end, we're going to merge all the data together for one mega study. We want to have some consistency across the studies, so we do have some that are required. And then we have this typical SingWell design. We're offering support for our research team, from what a project could look like.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  26:28 Well, this podcast typically has a wonderful diverse demographic, but it includes researchers. and clinical researchers who collaborate. So, let's take a moment and have you describe the grant review process and the dates for the next cycle, just in case people want to learn more.   Arla Good  26:45 Sure, so we are accepting grants from SingWell members. So the first step is to become a SingWell member. There is an application process on the website. We have an executive committee that reviews the applications twice a year, the next one is in scheduled for November. There's some time to get the application together. Once you're in as a member, the application for receiving funding is actually quite simple. It's basically just an explanation of the project and then it will undergo a review process. Jessica is actually one of our reviewers, so she can speak to what it was like to be a reviewer,   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  27:21 That would be great because, Jessica, when you and I chatted about it briefly, I've never heard a reviewer be so excited about being supportive in this process. So please share a little bit more because I thought your perspective was so refreshing and positive.    Jessica Richardson  27:36 I have to say too, I have definitely benefited from having some amazing reviewers in my own lifetime. I definitely have to point out one who was so impactful, Mary Boyle, her review, it was so thorough, and it was so intense, but it elevated one of my first endeavors into discourse analysis to just like a different level. And just the way that she treated it as a way to help shape, she was so invested, in just making sure that we were the best product out there. I learned what the world needed to learn. I definitely learned a lot from that experience and from other reviewers like her that I've benefited from.    As a reviewer, whenever I review anything, I try to keep that same spirit. So when I was doing SingWell reviews, I made sure that I revisited the parent grant. I did a really good, thorough reread. I provided feedback and critiques from the lens of how does this fit with SingWell’s aims? And, how can it be shaped to serve those aims if it isn't quite there yet? So it's never like, “Ah, no, this is so far off”, it was just like, “Oh, where can we make a connection to help it fit?” Then trying to provide a review that would be a recipe for success, if not for this submission cycle, then for the next.    And as a submitter, even though I mean, we didn't have a meeting to like all take this approach. But I felt that the feedback that I received was really in that same spirit. And so I love feedback in general. I don't always love the rejection that comes with it. But I do love stepping outside of myself and learning from that different perspective. And I've really just felt that this thing while reviewers were invested, and were really just interested in shaping submissions to success,   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  29:24 That’s really worthwhile, right? So you get something, even if you're not going to get funding. You still get to come away with something that's valuable, which is that feedback.    We’ve been talking about measures and I'm really interested in that as a topic. Jessica, could you take a moment and share a little bit about how SingWell’s pre/post measures are being adopted for aphasia?  We all know that's some of the challenges. Sometimes, some of the measures that we use for mood, connectivity, or stress are not always aphasia-friendly. So what does that process look like?   Jessica Richardson  29:59 I will say they did their homework at the top end, even before the proposal was submitted. Really having you on the advisory board, and I was able to give some feedback on some of the measures. Some of the measures they’ve already selected were specific to aphasia. For Parkinson's disease, there are Parkinson's disease specific measures and for stuttering, specific measures. And for aphasia, they picked ones that are already aphasia-friendly. What I was super excited about too, is that they included discourse without me asking. It was already there. I think we helped build it to be a better discourse sample and we've added our own. So it's already in there as their set of required and preferred measures. But the other thing is that the investigator, or investigators, have a lot of latitude, according to your knowledge of the clinical population that you're working with, to add outcomes that you feel are relevant. That's a pretty exciting aspect of getting these pilot funds.    Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  30:58 So there's both some core suggested measures, but there's a lot of latitude for making sure that you're picking measures that will capture and are appropriate to your particular focus of your projects. That's great. Absolutely.   Jessica Richardson  31:09 I definitely feel that if there were any big issue that we needed to bring up, we would just talk to Arla and Frank, and they would be receptive.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  31:20 I’ve been very intrigued and interested in attempts to measure social connectedness as an outcome measure. You speak about it in your article, about the value of social bonding and the way music seems to be a really good mechanism to efficiently create social bonding. Is there something about choir that makes this factor, this social connectedness, different from being part of other groups? How are you going to even capture this this factor? Who wants to take that one?     Arla Good  31:50 I do, I can talk, we can do another podcast on this one.   Jessica Richardson  31:55 It's my turn, Arla. I'm just kidding (laughter).   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  32:01 You can both have a turn. You go first, Arla,  And then Jessica, I think you will probably add,   Jessica Richardson  32:04 I'm totally kidding (laughter).   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  32:06 Go ahead, Arla.   Arla Good  32:07 This is what I did my dissertation on. I truly believe in the power of group music making. So singing is just an easy, accessible, scalable way to get people to move together. It's consistent with an evolutionary account that song and dance was used by small groups to promote social bonding and group resiliency. I've seen the term collective effervescence in these types of writings.    When we moved together, it was like a replacement for in our great ape ancestors, they were one on one grooming, picking up the nits in each other's fur. Human groups became too large and too complex to do one on one ways of social bonding. And so we needed to develop a way to bond larger groups rapidly.    And the idea here is that movement synchrony, so moving together in precise time, was one way of connecting individuals, creating a group bond. Singing is just a fun way of doing that. I've been studying this for about 15 years and trying to understand. We've pared it down, right down to just tapping along with a metronome, and seeing these types of cooperation outcomes and feelings of social bonding, connectedness. I do think there's something special, maybe not singing specifically, but activities that involve movement synchrony. We could talk about drumming, we could talk about dance, I think that there is a special ingredient in these types of activities that promote social bonds.   Jessica Richardson  33:37 There’s been some of us even looking at chanting, there's research about that as well.    Arla Good   We should do a SingWell study on chanting!   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  33:43 Jessica, what else do you want to add about what is important about capturing social connectedness? Or, how do we capture social connectedness?     Jessica Richardson  33:53 I think I'll answer the first part, which is, what is special about thinking about it and capturing it. It’s something that we've slowly lost over decades and generations, the communal supports. Our communities are weakened, we're more spread out. It's also a way of bringing something back that has been so essential for so long. We've weakened it with technology, with just all the progress that we've made. It’s a way to bring something that is very primitive and very essential back. So, that doesn't totally answer your question, though.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  34:31 When we think about the isolation related to aphasia and the loss of friendship, and some of the wonderful research that's coming out about the value and impact of friendship on aphasia, and then, you think about choirs and some of this research--I believe choir is identified as the number one most popular adult hobby/activity. I think more people are involved in choirs as an adult. It's not the only meaningful activity, but it's a very long standing, well developed one,   Jessica Richardson  35:03 We have to figure out how to get the people though who will not touch a choir with a 10 foot pole?   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  35:08 Well, we will continue to do the work on the other groups, right, that suits them very well. You know, be it a book club, or a gardening group, or a pottery class, or many, many, many other choices.   Jessica Richardson  35:21 Or a bell choir?   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  35:24 Bell choirs are great, too.    Do either of you want to speak to what type of measures captures social connectedness or what you're using, or suggesting people try to use, for SingWell projects?   Jessica Richardson  35:38 I think Arla already captured some of those with those markers that she was talking about earlier. Hormonal markers. But the self-report questionnaires, and that perspective. There's other biomarkers that can very easily be obtained, just from your spirit. So I think that's going in the right direction, for sure.   Arla Good  35:59 Yeah, we've also looked at behavioral measures in the past like strategic decision making games, economic decision making games, and just seeing if people trust each other, and whether they're willing to share with each other. We've asked people how attractive they think the other people are. Questions like this that are capturing the formation of a group, whether they're willing to share with their in-group.  It's a question of in-group and out-group, and what are some of the effects of the in-group.     Jessica Richardson  36:26 And we're definitely exploring too, because we do a lot of neurophysiological recording in my lab. Is there a place for EEG here? Is there a place for fNIRS, especially with fNIRS, because they can actually be doing these things. They can be participating in choir, we can be measuring things in real time. While they're doing that, with the fNIRS-like sports packs, so sorry, fNIRS is functional near-infrared spectroscopy in case some of the listeners aren't sure.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  36:52 I needed help with that one too. Thank you.    I'm thinking about some of the work done by Tom Sather that talks about the sense of flow and its contribution to eudaimonic well-being, right? I think that's a key piece of what SingWell is looking at as well. It’s exciting to look at all these different measures, and all these different pillars that you are presenting today.    And if people want to find out more about SingWell, do you want to say something about your website, what they might find if they were to go there?   Arla Good  37:25 Yes, go to the website, SingWell.org, pretty easy to remember. And on the website, you'll find all the resources to run a research study, to apply to be a member. We have resources for choir directors who are looking to start their own choir, we have opportunities to get involved as research participants if you're someone living with aphasia, or other communication challenges. There's lots of opportunities to get involved on the website. And you can sign up for our newsletter and receive the updates as they come and check out our website.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  37:57 That's great. I certainly have been watching it develop. And I think it has a lot of really helpful resources. I appreciate the work that's been put into that. How do people get involved in the SingWell project? You mentioned earlier about becoming a member. Is there anything else you want to add about becoming engaged with SingWell?    Arla Good  38:18 I think the ways to become involved, either becoming a member or starting a choir using the resources, or like I said, signing up for the newsletter just to stay engaged. And as a participant, of course, doing the surveys or signing up for a choir if you're one of the participants called.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  38:35 Thank you. I'm was wondering if you'd share with the listeners any sample projects that are underway.    Arla Good  38:46 For sure. So we have five funded studies this year. We have one ChantWell, which Jessica spoke about, assessing the benefits of chanting for breathing disorders. That's taking place in Australia. The effects of online group singing program for older adults with breathing disorders on their lung health, functional capacity, cognition, quality of life, communication skills and social inclusion. That is in Quebec, Canada. The third study, the group singing to support well-being and communication members of Treble Tremors. That's a Parkinson's choir taking place in Prince Edward Island, Canada. The fourth is how important is the group in group singing, so more of a theoretical question looking at group singing versus individual singing, an unbiased investigation of group singing benefits for well-being and that's also in Quebec. And then last but not least, I saved it for last, is our very own Jessica Richardson’s group singing to improve communication and well-being for persons with aphasia or Parkinson's disease. So I thought I might let Jessica share, if she's open to sharing some of what the research study will entail.   Jessica Richardson  39:53 Oh, yes, thank you. When we first started our neuro choir, I had envisioned it as being an aphasia choir. And we had so much need in the community, from people with other types of brain injury. Our Parkinson's Disease Association, too, has really been reaching out ever since I've moved here. They have a group actually, they're called the Movers and Shakers, which I really love. So, we have a pretty healthy aphasia cohort of people who are interested, who also, you know, taking a break and only doing things virtually if they are interested, you know, since COVID. And then we have our Parkinson's cohort here as well, the Movers and Shakers, were following the suggested study design, it's a 12 week group singing intervention. They have suggestions for different outcome measures at different timescales, we're following that and adding our own outcome measures that we also feel are relevant. So we have those measures for communication and well-being, including the well-being biomarkers through the saliva. As she mentioned, already, we have latitude for the choir director, like who we want to pick and what she or he wants to do. We already have that person picked out. And we already know, and have all of that stuff figured out. There is some guidance, but again, flexibility for our session programming. And we have the choices over the homework programming, as well. We are really looking at this choir in the wild, and looking at those outcomes with their measures. So we're excited about it.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  41:22 I think you've just thought of a great name for a future aphasia choir, which is a “neuro choir choir in the wild”   Jessica Richardson  41:30 Well, out here, we're a choir in the wild, wild west.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  41:34 There you go. Absolutely. What have been some of the most surprising findings of the benefits of singing so far that have come in through the SingWell project? Either of you want to take that on?   Arla Good  41:46 I don't know if it's the most surprising, but it's definitely the most exciting. I'm excited to continue unpacking what's happening with oxytocin, I think it's a pretty exciting hormone, it's pretty hot right now. It’s typically associated with being like a love hormone. They call it associated with sex, and it's associated with mother-infant bonding. If we can find a way that's not mother-infant or pair bonding to release oxytocin, that's very exciting. If group singing is one of those ways to promote this sense of “I don't know where I end and you begin, and we're one” and all those loving feelings. As Jessica mentioned, the missing piece, and how we relate to each other in a society, choir might be an answer to that. I'm really excited about the oxytocin outcome measure. Again, it’s still very early, I don't want to say definitively what's happening, but it's a pretty exciting piece.   Jessica Richardson  42:45 I have a future doctoral student that's going to be working on this. That is the part she's most interested in as well..   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  42:52 So there are some really good things that, hopefully, will continue to tell us what some of these benefits are and that it's important to fund and connect people to these types of activities. You said, this is like year one or two of a 6 year project, was that right? Or is it seven year?   Arla Good  43:09 It’s seven year.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  43:10 So what is your hope for the future of the SingWell project?   Arla Good  43:15 The secondary goals would be the hope for the future, of actually creating change in the communities and getting people to think outside the box of providing care. Is there a choir that can be prescribed nearby? Is there a way to train these choir directors so that they have the correct training for this specific population? So drawing from the knowledge from speech- language therapy, from choir direction, from music therapy-   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  43:42 Music therapy, right.   Arla Good  43:43 Of course, of course. So creating an accreditation program and training choir directors to lead choirs like this, and having this army of choir directors around the world that are doing this. So, this is a big goal. But that's what I hope to see.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  44:00 That's fantastic. And I think there's some researchers who are really working hard at looking at protocols and asking these questions. And I know, I've been inspired by some of the work that Ali Talmage is doing in New Zealand that's looking at some of these questions. And, Jessica, do you want to add what's your hope is as aphasia lead? Or, what you're thinking about for the SingWell project that you're excited about?   Jessica Richardson  44:21 We have to generate that evidence that we need and mentioning again, those 10 foot pole people, to reach out to let people know that choirs aren't just for people who think that they can sing. We definitely have had some very energetic and enthusiastic choir members who think that they can sing and cannot, and they're still showing up. Maybe you're the one who thinks that choirs aren't for you. If we can generate enough energy, inertia, and evidence to convince those that it might be worth giving a try. I think some of them are going to be surprised that they enjoy it and “oh, I can sing.” So I think that to me is a future hoped for outcome.    And then again, seeing it spread out to other gardening groups, other yoga groups, all these other things that we know are happening within Aphasia Access members and beyond to see, okay, there's this methodology. This is what's used to study something like this, let's apply it also so that its efficacy data for these other approaches that we know and we see can be helpful, but we don't have enough proof to have someone prescribe it and to get those stakeholders involved.   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  45:33 Yes. And we talked about the importance of some of the work that's being done with mental health and aphasia and how some of the information that you're pursuing could really tie in and help us support and get more work in that area as well. So really exciting.    I can't believe we have to wrap up already. I agree with you all, that we could just keep talking on this one. But let's just end on this note, I would like to find out from both of you. If you had to pick just one thing that we need to achieve urgently as a community of providers and professionals, what would that one thing be? What would you like to speak to? At the end of this discussion we've had today and Arla, you get to go first again.   Arla Good  46:15 The one thing we need to achieve urgently is to find a way to address people's needs in a more holistic way. And to see the human as a whole, that it's not just this piece and this piece and this piece, but all of it together? And how can we do that? How can we communicate better as practitioners, as researchers, so that we can address these needs more holistically?   Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  46:36 Thank you. Thank you. And Jessica, what would you like to say?   Jessica Richardson  46:41 I could just say ditto. I totally agree. So the end.    But I think the other part is from a clinician standpoint. What I hear most from colleagues that are out there in the wild, and former students, is that they want the “How to” info which is perfect, because, SingWell has a knowledge mobilization aim, and the exact aim of that is to develop and share best practice guides, which you know, are already mentioned, choir sustainability guides, how to fund it, how to keep it going. Really important. And they're going to update these regularly. It's going to be available in lots of languages. So that's something I'm especially excited for, for our community, because I know so many people who want to start a choir, but it feels too big and intimidating, and maybe they don't feel like they have the musical chops. But this will really help them get over that hump to get started and will address that need. And that desire, that's already there, in a big way.        Ellen Bernstein-Ellis  47:42 Thank you. I'm so appreciative that you both made this happen today. It was complicated schedules. And I just really, really appreciate want to thank you for being our guests for this podcast. It was so much fun. I'm excited to follow the SingWell project over the next seven years and see what continues to grow and develop.    So for more information on Aphasia Access, and to access our growing library of materials, please go to www.aphasiaaccess.org And if you have an idea for a future podcast series topic, just email us at [email protected] And thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access. Arla, Jessica, thank you so much. Thank you.    References and Resources  UNM Neuro Choir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQuamJgTVj8&list=PLy586K9YzXUzyMXOOQPNz3RkfRZRqtR-L&index=5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guU_uRaFbHI&list=PLy586K9YzXUzyMXOOQPNz3RkfRZRqtR-L&index=6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4_0Xd7HNoM&list=PLy586K9YzXUzyMXOOQPNz3RkfRZRqtR-L&index=7   www.singwell.org Good, A., Kreutz, G., Choma, B., Fiocco, A., Russo, F., & World Health Organization. (2020). The SingWell project protocol: the road to understanding the benefits of group singing in older adults. Public Health Panorama, 6(1), 141-146. Good, A., & Russo, F. A. (2022). Changes in mood, oxytocin, and cortisol following group and individual singing: A pilot study. Psychology of Music, 50(4), 1340-1347.