Grief and loss: leaning into a much-needed discussion in conversation with CeCelia Zorn, Tania Riske, and Nancy Petersen

Welcome to the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. I'm Jerry Hoepner. I'm a professor at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire and co-facilitator of the Chippewa Valley Aphasia Camp, Blugold Brain Injury Group, Mayo Brain Injury Group, and Thursday Night Poets.  I'm also a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's host for an episode that will feature three voices, one of a partner of an individual with primary progressive aphasia, CeCelia Zorn, who also happens to be a former professor in the department of nursing at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire; along with Tania Riske, an SLP at the Mayo Clinic Health Systems Eau Claire, and Nancy Petersen, a social worker with expertise in grief and bereavement from Ability KC in Kansas City. Each of them have both professional and personal experience and expertise with grief and loss. June is aphasia awareness month, so we wanted to take this opportunity to share the lived experience directly. Today’s episode will address grief, death, and loss: leaning into a much-needed discussion. Biosketch: Our first guest, CeCelia Zorn, Ph.D., met her husband Wayne in high school in rural northeastern Wisconsin. Wayne died from the consequences of primary progressive aphasia last August, 2023. Since that time, CeCelia has continued her work as an advocate for families living with primary progressive aphasia and more recently about grief, death, and loss as a care partner. Cecelia brings multiple perspectives to our conversation about grief, death, and loss. She is a registered nurse and a lifelong writer. She has been an award-winning university professor for 32 years. CeCelia reads voraciously, plays pickleball, and is relearning how to play the flute – taking individual lessons, playing in community bands and auditing university music history class. She volunteers at the local free clinic and is an active member of the Board of Directors for Wayne’s former memory choir. On a daily basis, CeCelia strives for a life enriched by kindness, joy, perseverance, curiosity, patience, and collaboration. But she will be the first to tell you, “some days are easy but some days you just crash. Yet everyday it counts because I remind myself, life isn’t waiting for the storm to pass it’s about learning to dance in the rain.”   Tania Riske, MS, CCC-SLP is a speech-language pathologist at Mayo Health Systems – Eau Claire. She initially entered the speech language pathology field through her volunteer work with the Chippewa Valley Aphasia Group and graduated from the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire Communication Sciences and Disorders program. Currently, she serves as an adjunct faculty member at UW Eau Claire, teaching undergraduate courses such as anatomy and physiology of the speech and hearing mechanism. Tania continues to enjoy treating patients with aphasia and their families within the LPAA Paradigm. Developing plans of care, counseling individuals’ unique lifestyles, goals, interests, and priorities. Tania is an avid trail runner and equestrian. CeCelia, Wayne, and Tania were my guests for Episode 49 – Primary Progressive Aphasia: A conversation with Wayne Zorn, CeCelia Zorn, and Tania Riske. Nancy Petersen, MSW. Nancy grew up just outside Tulsa, OK and has an undergraduate degree in Speech Language Pathology from Oklahoma State University. She received a Master of Social Work from Jane Addams School of Social Work at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where she worked in urban hospitals and neighborhoods. Nancy is currently a Community Liaison for Ability KC, assisting patients as they transition from acute care to an intensive outpatient complex neuro-trauma rehab program. Her job also involves providing conferences and education to the medical and general Kansas City community. In her 30 years in the helping professions, she has learned much working in a variety of areas including nursing homes, hospice care, a suicide hotline, senior home care and case coordination. She has served on both the local and national Board of the Funeral Consumers Alliance providing education and advocacy relating to consumer protections in the funeral industry. Nancy is also involved with the Children’s Mercy Hospital Rare Disease Patient Family Advisory Council, as well as the Ethical, Legal, and Social Integration (ELSI) Committee for the CMH Genome Project. Nancy has been married to Jimmy for 24 years and has an 18-year-old son with a rare disease, 21-year-old daughter, a cat, a dog and many wonderful friends. Take aways: Avoidance. We avoid difficult conversations and miss opportunities to engage our clients and their families in important discussions about loss and grief. Culture. There is a culture in the US of avoiding or sugar coating conversations about grief, death, and loss; using euphemisms to describe death. Prolonging. We (as a society) are often guilty of prolonging life at any consequence and failing to consider quality of life. Loss. Loss and grief do not exclusively apply to death and bereavement. They apply, as we know, to identity and loss of a whole host of pieces of our lives and identity, particularly following stroke and aphasia. PPA and degenerative loss. This loss is something we know is going to happen and open conversations about loss may help to open the door to bigger conversations about death and dying.   Interview Transcript: Jerry Hoepner: let's just kind of settle into a conversation. I really appreciate having the 3 of you here together. I know you all fairly well, but having the lens of a speech language pathologist, the lens of a social worker, and the lens of someone with the lived experience themselves is just a great way to have a conversation about a complicated and challenging conversation sometimes one that maybe people want to avoid. So, I'm just excited to talk to all of you. I'm going to open it up on the front end with a really broad question. I want to be careful, you know. I don't want to make you relive moments and things like that, but I also know that you are here because you want to be advocates for teaching and conversations about death and dying and grieving, and all of those processes. So, wondering if the 3 of you are willing to share a little bit about your personal background and experiences with grief. CeCelia, go ahead. CeCelia: Yup, yeah, I happy to start. Thanks, Jerry, for kind of pulling us all together. I really appreciate the opportunity to be part of the conversation. The thing that comes to mind when you pose that question is my family history around dying and grief and death and I'm so fortunate to have had that family experience. I think it was sort of a balance between the emotional side of dying and death, and the practical side of dying and death, and our family held both of those at the same time. It wasn't just the emotion, and it wasn't just the practical aspects, but it was sort of, I don't know, running down a river of white water with one foot in each canoe, and I remember specifically, at my dad's death bed. There were 7 of us kids, and we of course, mourned his passing and were extremely emotional about that, and stayed with him 24, 7 for 3 weeks, etc. Etc. And but at the same time we were talking about. Should we have spaghetti or ham at his funeral luncheon? So, sort of the practical aspects of how is this all gonna come together in a few weeks when we knew the funeral was coming? So, for me, that's a strength that has carried throughout my life. And I I just am so appreciative of that. And I can only speak to my experience. Perhaps other families have had similar experiences, or one versus the other, or neither. But I just wanted to sort of throw that out there. That sort of ability to handle both things sort of in the same at the same time, has been a source of strength for me. Jerry Hoepner: Wow! Thanks for sharing that, CeCelia. And I'm not sure that that is the experience of a lot of people that ability to do that. I want to take a step back, and mention something I should have mentioned. CeCelia. You kind of wear a couple of different hats, so you were a nursing faculty member for many, many years you have that holistic care, nursing perspective on grief and death as well, and then you also wear that lived experience hat as well. If I can use that metaphor in dealing with your husband. Wayne's death related to primary progressive aphasia. So just so. Our audience is understanding those perspectives. I think that's important. And to go back to what you just said, everyone has a different experience, and I'm not sure that everyone does process those things in parallel. Jerry Hoepner: Nancy, I'll invite you to share a little bit next. Nancy Petersen: Well, I'd be happy to. So, background is I have a master's in social work from Jane Adams at University of Illinois, at Chicago my experiences over the time figuring out what I wanted to be when I grew up, and what I ended up doing where I worked at a suicide hotline. For 3 years. I then worked in hospice for a number of years, including pediatric hospice while kind of in my life. At the same time my father died when I was 20, very unexpectedly at 52. I have worked in kind of every different version of the helping profession and nursing homes and pediatric settings and am currently working in complex neuro trauma rehab I was on the National Board for the funeral Consumers alliance when all of a sudden, my son was diagnosed with a rare progressive, neurodegenerative disease, 6 years ago and we're dealing with what that means and what that looks like. What that does to a 13-year-old when they get diagnosed with something that will limit his life. And so have kind of truly become aware of the difference between someone who talks about life and things that people need to know and what how things should be in an academic way, and truly have learned what it feels like to live that you know, your parents are important, but kids are different. They hit different. And when you kind of start living that deeply, what I have learned becomes a lot closer to home, it just hits really close to home. So that's kind of my background. I did a lot of I wrote a section for Jerry's book about you know, one of the textbooks about death and dying, and what I believe about it. I'm kind of curious having not read it for a while. How my! Just how the changes in what has happened in my life. And Clark was sick then. So, it's not brand new, but even then kind of the differences of what happens over time when you're living kind of a situation like that. And I just looked at something. I wrote a while back a presentation called Death as a 5-letter word and it has some interesting things in it as well. So, I think the topic of death has no answers. And the talk of bereavement has no answers, and very often people who are bereave, who are bereaved, or who are getting ready to, who are bereaving before the death, want there to be. And I think that's one of the biggest, although obvious. When you stop and think about it, that's one of the biggest issues that you're going to run into families is they want an answer to make it better. And it's very hard to explain to people they have to live it. That's part of the problem, and the issue with grief is that you can't step around it. If you do, you'll find yourself in far worse situation than if you live through it. So, I think for caregivers or those around you. There's a lot more to say about what to do for someone or with someone who's experiencing it. So, I try to look at it from all the different perspectives to see what sometimes nonsense I can spout. That sounds intelligent, because truly it is such an individual, it is so utterly individual. And there aren't right ways and wrong ways. People think there's a good way or a bad way, or they think there's a right way. And what happens is what happens. And the biggest problem is making sure that you know when it's kind of out of hand or when you need external kick assistance. You need to understand how long it lasts. You need to understand what happens in that and that it's okay. So much of what's going to happen that feels difficult or feels odd or feels out of place is normal. And maybe that's our goal is to normalize people's reaction to it is to normalize their own personal journey as not being something. Then you have to compare to anyone else's. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, that's such an important point. And again, really emphasizes the fact that all 3 of you are experts with multiple lenses. And I guess everyone is at some point in their life. You know you. You bring your personal background to it, your professional background to it, and then your experiences with life and death and grieving, and all of those things. So, really, I mean, I think we're really fortunate to have this conversation with 3 individuals who have such a broad lens, and are able to view death and grieving from multiple lenses like you all are. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Tania. I'll let you jump in next. If that's okay. Tania Riske: Yeah, that'd be great. Well, as a clinician, I think I really first sort of became interested in and in investing in conversations about grief because I saw a lot of patients who were facing terrible diagnoses and care partners who are trying to figure out how to sort that out and not having the opportunity to do that. Your neurologist was maybe going to be interested in providing analysis and checking in with you every few months, and maybe adjusting your medications. Your primary care provider was keeping an eye on your blood pressure and your cholesterol. And there just really wasn't a person or a provider who was acknowledging that there was going to be partings happening, that this you know, that this might be a diagnosis that was going to lead. Brief or certainly significant life changes. So it wasn't being talked about. It wasn't being supported, and that really started to make me feel like there was a that was a gap that needed to be filled, the conversations that needed to be opened and had and continued, it wasn't just a one and done kind of conversation, using it to be ongoing conversations and support. And as things change, the conversation maybe changes a little bit, and the resources change. So, I became really interested in the role of speech, language, pathologists, and other providers also in supporting brief and just. Incidentally, as this became a bigger part of what I was thinking about and taking up more headspace for me and making me really think about how I was practicing and how it's impacting patients and families. Incidentally, I lost an adult child. So, I have some of my own grief that I'm dealing with as well, and you can hear that coming up me a little bit right now. But it really shapes how I think about grief and how it's impacting families, and what they might need, or what they might want. And when I was hearing Nancy talk about there being no real answers, and gosh! Families want answers so badly and helping them explore through their grief. And what's right for them and supporting that. And when CeCelia talks about that practical versus the emotional standpoint having one foot in each canoe. I don't think that's an experience that a lot of families have. I think that that's such a lovely perspective and strength that you have, CeCelia but I don't think a lot of other families have that. So as a clinician, investing in families and helping them to have those conversations and recognize that there's not right or wrong answers. But the questions are very fair and very valid, and just be able to support that in a way that feels authentic and feels genuine and caring, and not filled with trite comments and superficial responses. And let's move on from this because we've got other things to talk about, I think, is really important. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, thanks for sharing those perspectives. Tania. And one thing that I want to highlight for this particular podcast is, we're working with individuals with communication impairments who have maybe additional barriers to talking about death and dying. So, I mean beyond the challenges that we have with what that all of us have in everyday conversations about death and dying. That's just an additional layer. From the standpoint of sharing education with them, but also decision making and planning that becomes so much more challenging in that context. Nancy Petersen: Well, and more importantly, it may isolate them even further from those around them who could support them, who were having enough trouble, just having regular conversations with them. And now we need to have a conversation that's frightens them, that they don't know how to do and I will never forget one of my that I just read said that people who are trying to support people need to remember they're not expected to be Yoda like you. You aren't. You don't have to have the answers, and we for some reason think that is such an important thing that if you talk to someone about something difficult. I said. If you know suddenly, if you someone you know, has cancer, you're supposed to be able to talk to them about cancer treatment. I mean, I don't. The people that helped me the most in the most difficult situations in my life have been the ones who said the least and I don't know why that is hard for people to grasp or be okay with. Hmm. I think part of it is that we are really bad at silence in general and we feel like everything has to be filled. And I am one of those people who, when I get anxious, I just talk more so when I'm being silent is a learned skill, and that is something that many of us is skilled. Many of us don't have. Tania Riske: I think you're right on with that, Nancy. It's so hard to be quiet and listen and I think especially many of us who are in clinical or provider fields tend to feel like it is my job and my responsibility to try to fix this or make it better. But that's not true. But, boy, it's that's what we want to do. Nancy Petersen: Right. Even I have put in that situation, and knowing, you know, it's kind of the same thing about having a sick child, I know the right thing to do but I don't. My emotions. I'm not always. I don't always react with my brain. So, you have to have a lot of self-talk to say. Now, remember, you don't have to know everything, and quiet is good, and they know their own answers, and even with a degree in speech, I mean my undergrad in speech, pathology, so I only know enough to be dangerous. But my I mean social work teaches you to let people find their own answers, and it's still so difficult to do in a really serious situation to not want to fix and to not want to help and it's hard to believe that help is less in situations such as serious grief. CeCelia: And maybe it's not necessarily just sort of pure silence, but it might be reframing. Nancy Petersen: Reflection. Yeah, I agree. CeCelia: You know. Help me understand what you're thinking, or help me understand what you're feeling, rather than sort of tolerating the silencing. When this person is done talking. Then I can go on to some real things, but sort of reframing that silence in a new way might be helpful in some situations. Nancy Petersen: Certainly, active listening is/can be good. I mean, it can be very helpful in many situations. What I kept getting was, what can I do? when I was in that situation, all I wanted to say was, if you can't make my dad well, there's nothing you can do, and it almost angered me that people would ask, What can I do? Because there was only one thing I needed done, and nobody could do it. So, you kinda I would much have preferred, and I did prefer my friends, who were very active listeners, or who sat and padded in my leg or my arm, you know, and you also have to kind of figure out. Are they in the middle of the death, like are they? Is the death actively occurring right then, in which case silence might be helpful. But then, when they want to talk about it. When someone wants to really talk which happens inner, you know, it's interspersed in all of that that reflection and active listening and reframing and making sure you understand what they're saying can be, I think, most helpful. Tania Riske: Oftentimes I've really seen my role as inviting the conversation, opening the door and making it a safe space for that conversation. Even if a patient or family isn't ready to have a conversation about grief that either they're experiencing or they're anticipating they may be or they're going to experience in the future. To know that first of all, I'm acknowledging that, and then also really trying to create that safe space with an open door that we can go to that conversation and that this is this is an okay place to start thinking about what might be coming, what we're afraid of. So, I think starting the conversation early is also important. Nancy Petersen: Well, and here's one of the we. I'm sorry, CeCelia, do you wanna. CeCelia: I was just gonna sort of concur with you, Tania, in terms of, in addition to that sort of the idea of repetition and patience that it's not just a one-time shot. Okay, this happened on Tuesday, 3 weeks ago, and now I don't have the space to do that. But sort of the need to repeat that open door, and maybe I wasn't ready 3 weeks ago. But by God, I really need to do this again. So please be patient with me, and please repeat this opportunity. So, the idea of repetition and patience seems important. Nancy Petersen: And one of the differences is, a lot of people don't always have a Tania that they see regularly in life to do this and what the thing that I have seen happen so many times is that the person who so …, we get a lot of rehab and we do what we do. But sometimes we'll get people who have glioblastomas, and they want rehab and I'm not sure the patient wants rehab and that yes, getting stronger is helpful. And yes, that gives them more energy. And maybe they just had a reception, and maybe they really can build up a little bit, but it's so much the families who are in denial that want them to get better, and they'll grasp. But any straw to try to make their need to understand and accept what's happening to put it off just a hair longer. And when I worked in hospice specifically we would walk in. They actually even took the word Hospice off our name tags because families were insistent that we not tell the patient they were dying. What was always most amusing was that the patient always knew they were dying and would ask me not to tell their family they were dying. So, the conversations that weren't getting put off were grief related, and fear of death related so intensely. Both desperate to protect the other member of their family, the other group and we did a lot of trying to get to the elephant in the room trying to get to the thing that everyone knew was happening. But people get there so differently that it's very difficult, as the social worker put in the middle of that pers that situation, to figure out who's ready or what their reactions gonna be. If we decide to talk about this and how to handle that reaction because we would get I mean, we changed our name tags. We got so many families angry that we were supposedly letting their dying loved one in on the little secret they were dying and instead of us saying, It's not a secret. The word. Hospice is not going to come as a great surprise to them. We just took it off. Tania Riske: Wow! That's really interesting. I do see on a routine basis what you're talking about, where families do not want death dying hospice any of those words uttered around their loved ones, and sometimes vice versa, too, but almost always it's families protecting their loved one who is dying. But to take it to that extreme of. We can't even have this on a name Tag, because it's just saying too much angering. Too many people is really fascinating, and I think very telling about just our whole thought process around death dying and grief. Nancy Petersen: Our death, denying culture. What do you possibly mean? Having worked in it, I literally would sit at a table at an exposition. You know, when we're trying to talk to people about Hospice, and people would literally go away from our table and around like Hospice was somehow catching. Tania Riske: Wow. Nancy Petersen: And say, I'm not dying. I don't. Don't talk to me about it, and like literally avoid and it would catch me. So I mean I just I was always amazed at the number of ways people would avoid talking about something. That's one of the very few things you must never. You can't avoid. No matter how far away you walk them from my table. What it does instead is make you ill prepared for when it does come. Hmm, okay. CeCelia: Wonder if we need to reframe the language that we use to describe people's reaction. You know, thinking about the negativity associated with some of the labels. I'm just. I'm just thinking about the word denial and avoidance aren't very positive words in my book. And yet we continue to label people in denial and avoidance. And I wonder if we could think about the meaning of the language, and how that might help people I don't know. Just raising the question. I don't have any answers, but. Nancy Petersen: Well, I think there's a part of me that says, if you soft pedal it, you're not doing them any favors now, that's my belief, and I have been in working with death and dying my whole life. So, I know that I'm not your average person, but I blame society. I blame the way we talk about things in advertisements, the way we talk about things on the news. We don't even use the word die. We don't use the word death. We don't use the word, you know. We come up with all these euphemisms of passed on or lost. I think personally, they are not benefiting us. I don't think so personally softening the language. Now, if I'm dealing with a family that can't handle what I'm not trying to force this sudden societal change down everyone's individual throat. But what I am saying is that in general we probably need to. You know, when you talk in different cultures about death. It's something they talk about constantly. When you look at, look at the native Americans. Death is part of the circle of life. It's what there is. And we talk about. You know, vitamin water like it's gonna be the Fountain of Youth, and we're never gonna have to die if we take enough pills that are vitamins, and we drink this magic water, and we Yoga or Pilates that we suddenly have this option and America is known for I mean, I went and studied Hospice in England, and they were vastly different in how they approach death and how they handled pediatric deaths. Jerry knows not to get me started about that. We literally act in this country. We do not let children die, we will not, no matter how much we know. That's we can't stop it, we will not people die. I saw a 95-year-old woman with advanced Alzheimer’s getting a feeding tube put in and I, who did not know where she was in the hospital. She was terrified. She didn't know what was happening. It was a horrible situation, and I thought, well, probably the best thing we need to do is put a lot of food in her that sounds like the best ending for this and it just the whole thing sums up our inability to understand that if we talked about it more we might have a better reaction to it when it was time because when I've been around hundreds of people who were actively dying. They're very comfortable talking about it and they're very. They're anxious to talk about what they want and what's meant things to them and what they want to hear, and I would have family. Say, mama, don't talk like that. I don't need to hear that. I can't hear you talk about you dying right now. Don't talk to me about things like that. We're going to go make dinner, and we're just going to have a great dinner together, and push back on the dying person's desire to speak their truth and their what they wanted to talk about at the end of their life. And that doesn't. That didn't work either. Tania Riske: I agree with that, Nancy, that we are really a society, that life at all costs prolong life at all costs, and I hadn't thought about that before in light of the fact that maybe that is tied into sort of our belief system in our conversations or the conversations and the beliefs that we don't have about death dying and grief. That because we don't talk about it, it's not Ok to talk about it that facilitates that we must prolong life no matter the costs. Not thinking about quality of life but instead, thinking about prolongation of life, and those are 2 very different things. Nancy Petersen: And I see it all the time I was with the family, Father had a massive stroke. Daughters adored him, wanted him at no matter what Dad needed to get better. And so, they were pushing it better, and the dad looked at me with aphasia after a massive stroke. And I'm doing all this talking about our program, and they're so excited. And he looked at me and said, Why. yeah. Tania Riske: There it is! Nancy Petersen: Wasn't long before they let him die. They stopped coming and pushing for all of this, because he knew that the kind of stroke he had had was not going to work well with Rehab, that he had had a massive stroke and did not want to live like that, but his family was absolutely unable to manage that until he finally, after months of coming here and pretending to get better and stronger for them. And that's the other thing is, you're trying not to be mean to the family that loves you so much. They don't want you to die. But you know, let's not even get into the amount of money we're spending in Medicare, keeping people alive who have no, who, if given the choice, would never choose to live like they were living. I guarantee you they would not. And we can get into the ethics of that. When I was in Hospice we had a 36 year old man who had a ventilator and we had a 92 year old woman who was unable to explain on a ventilator who didn't, couldn't talk. The 36-year-old, said, I want to die. I am of... I have no psychiatric illness. I am not. I cannot live on a ventilator. The rest of my life. I do not want this. I've done it for 2 years. I am not living this way. and people were horrified, would have nothing to do with taking this man off of ventilator, but had no issues, taking a woman who couldn't speak off of ventilator because of her age. Now she couldn't tell you if she wanted to die or not. But that was comfortable. But taking a 36-year-old, who could talk and make a conscious choice, was horrifying and I think that for me just summed up the way that we go, that we look at death and handle death, and think we somehow have some obligation to keep people alive or never, or the pain of discussing it needs to be prolonged. I don't know if it's life that needs to be prolonged. I don't. I don't know what that is, but it may be death in this culture is a failure. And it's framed that way in some of the words like lost the battle. Yep, yep, for sure. So, it's we do it like it's war. Jerry Hoepner: How do we open that dialogue, Tania? I know you and I talked about the PLISIT model, and that as an opening for conversations. But what do you think all of you, in terms of how do we open that dialogue? Nancy Petersen: I always. I'll open it with funerals. I don't know why it works sometimes, but funerals are a practical money situation. So, if you talk about funerals in a joking way, or in a kind of a, you know. By the way, we're all here at Thanksgiving. We've never talked about this. What do you want or not want? And if you can start a conversation with something that is less than so, you're going to die sometime. Why don't we talk about that instead, it's when you die. What do you want it to look like? And it feels less threatening. I think in many cases and it can start a conversation in a non, and I know it sounds weird to say funnels are non-threatening, but sort of a practical situation that people are always told to take care of their business before they need it. So, I don't know. I think sometimes jokes or humor, or practicality sometimes are less off putting. Tania Riske: Well, and for me as a clinician. I have to be in a certain place of having built a certain amount of report before we can jump into that, you know. I don't have the sort of built in, automatic family dynamics that you might when you sit down at that Thanksgiving dinner. So, having some rapport, and really knowing a little bit more about the patient or and or their family and the relationships. But for me, I it really requires me to consciously be bold and not use the euphemisms, not just avoid and skirt around, but to really be bold and open. That conversation of first of all, acknowledging that in the case of a degenerative condition, that that is where we are heading, we are ultimately heading toward death and opening that door for conversation, about losses that are anticipated. And whether it's changes in what a person can and can't do physically, cognition, health, opening the door to those conversations and re, and making sure that I revisit that and going back to that PLISIT model where really sort of the first step in that is granting that permission to have the conversations. Maybe it's not today. Maybe it's not in a month. And frankly, with some families and patients, maybe it's never but always being intentional about opening the door and keeping the door open. How does that resonate, CeCelia? When you hear these sides of the conversations where we're thinking about it from that provider standpoint. And you are. You've had the lived experience. How does what we're saying resonate with you. CeCelia: Right. I wonder if the idea of loss isn't just dying in death. In my experience, it was a lot of different loss for 9 years. So maybe framing the conversation around loss for Wayne's loss of speech and loss of cognition and loss of toiling abilities and loss of hygiene skills and how that evolved it's not just dying as loss, but it's a loss of everything over 10 years, and maybe I don't know. Maybe reframing that loss and not in not in terms of denial or avoidance. I still have issue with labeling people in that way. I don't think that fosters an acceptance. So, in addition to that, maybe reframing loss might be I think, was important to me. Nancy Petersen: And I absolutely please don't think that I was speaking to you. I was speaking in general about the denial I, or avoidance of death, as a rule, to someone who is not in a situation of actively managing that or even thinking about it. I was talking in general to people that are out getting freebies off my table at an exhibit hall who don't even wanna start the conversation because it's something that isn't happening to them. The other thing I want to say to you is, there are other losses that you're experiencing, that I talk. I've always talked about the loss of the husband that you had until he got sick, the loss of the ability to travel with him, the loss of conversations that you would have. So it's not just the losses of him, which, of course, you worried for him and those losses, but also to understand what you were losing, what everyone was losing. And I say this to people sometimes when I say grief can happen any time and grief is something that we should look at. We're going through all the time. If you lose a job if you lose, you know your home, you know. I just moved from my big house to this small house that my son could navigate, and there was loss involved in that. Not being a choice I wanted to make, and that being forced upon us, and that being the house, we hope to be in forever. So, people experience losses constantly and I don't think we give that enough thought. We're in America. We just seem to go and go and go. We're on the move forward wherever that is, and we don't. Maybe part of this is that we don't. We're not introspective all the time about loss and about, you know, when I talk to family sometimes, it's they haven't even sort of. They haven't put towards the losses that they've experienced. And those are losses, you know. That's not. Did you lose him when they died? But those are true losses. I once had to do a thing. I was gonna volunteer with Aids patients, and they gave us all these slips of paper with, we had to write down the 5 most important, you know who's the most important person in your life. What's your favorite hobby? And then they would make us take these pieces of paper and choose which piece of paper to remove from our pile, and that was gut wrenching, and all I was doing was wading up a piece of paper, so that just that activity was very hard, and made it so clear what losing parts of your life to a disease or to a situation could cause so please don't believe that I believe people that are in that situation are in denial in that respect, or that we should use that as a negative talk just that I think we live in death denial as a culture with the way we kind of act like. It's not a part of you know. We can show all kinds of medicine on TV. But if you put anything on there about a funeral or someone dying, people push back hard. We just have a problem with it. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, so kind of related to your example of people walking around your booth to not get to not catch Hospice. Yeah. But the other thing I'm thinking about. Nancy, as you were describing. Some of those losses. I don't think people always recognize them as losses. Just to have a conversation about changes. That you've experienced like. For example, when you said the loss of you know your larger home for a smaller home that your son could navigate. I think some people would recognize that as a change until they really think about. I loved that old house I mean, I loved it, and just opening up that dialogue might be an important piece of that conversation, too. Tania Riske: A conversation that I'm having more often is conversations with patients and families, too, about loss of identity. And I think that ties into the same idea where, if your identity was, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna live in this house with my healthy family. And you know, we're gonna do these activities. And we're gonna take these trips and and we're going to. And this is who I am and the vision that I have when that vision changes. I think there's a real loss of who am I? What does my future look like? What does this mean? And that I think that loss of identity is a really big, a really big deal, too, that we really need to support. Nancy Petersen: And we see a lot of men. And it's not only men, but we see a lot of men who, if they can't go back to their job. They've identified themselves as the breadwinner, or the a lawyer, or whatever it might be, and just that loss is almost. I mean, they think about it as a kind of death that they suddenly, you know nobody wants to be a burden, so everyone thinks of themselves as that. But when they lose their ability to do the thing that that made them who they were in their mind. We don't talk a lot about that we talk about. Well wouldn't get you. So, security disability. And, you know, like, money's gonna solve that problem. And now you can stay at home and watch TV. You don't like and not go golf anymore with your friends, and probably not be a part of those conversations that all your guys are having at poker, because you're not going anymore. Because you have. You know, you have aphasia. So you are absolutely right. And that's why I think that and why I was big about everybody who has a part of their life, who has a piece of that person, whether it's in rehab. And they're doing speech, pathology, or PT, and they're talking about it should be comfortable with having those harder discussions than you know. How about them chiefs, or whatever it is that you can have. Once well, here, you can have it a lot we win, but you know. But you know what I mean. Like you can. You need to have a conversation that gets a little deeper. Maybe you should feel comfortable having that come. Maybe you could do somebody more good if you were comfortable with that. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah. And I'm still glad you broaden the conversation to thinking about loss, not just as death and bereavement, but thinking about the application to everyone that we're working with in terms of, you know, people living with aphasia regardless of whether that's a degenerative aphasia or whether that is a stroke-based aphasia. There's a tremendous amount of loss and change, and even being able to have a conversation about that change, to be able to say those changes sound a lot like loss. I think that's an important piece of this conversation, too. Tania Riske: Over the years that I knew Wayne and CeCelia. I really had this, I think it was a very unique and awesome experience of seeing a partnership that works so well together to support identity. Even as Wayne went through changes with his primary, progressive aphasia. How they worked together and brought me into those conversations about, how do we continue to support Wayne, but also to support CeCelia as a partner and caregiver? And I think that's a part of a conversation that very often is overlooked by providers kind of circling back to when we first started this conversation. But about how do we support people as they're going through losses that affect their identity, that affect their physical health, their emotional health, their cognitive health? How do we support families, patients, loved ones. And I had the pleasure of just really seeing a phenomenal example of that. And that's not a support system that everyone has. How do we facilitate that. Jerry Hoepner: To me it feels like. It's not a support system until you open that door. Go ahead, CeCelia. CeCelia: I was just listening. Thank you, Tania. Jerry Hoepner: Gotcha, I mean, I feel like in this situation. Tania. You made it possible for some of those conversations to be initiated. I'd be interested in CeCelia's perspective about what it took, what kinds of doors were open for that conversation? Was that something that was initiated from only Tania? Or was it initiated in both directions? What are your thoughts on that. CeCelia: It certainly was Tania and per the other speech therapy colleagues, and the aphasia community and some friends and some family. I think one question that I heard that was or comment, and I heard it several times over the course of the years was being asked like, what are you experiencing, or what are you hearing other people say? That's painful for you and sort of letting that guide the conversation when people said such and such that was really painful. But when people said other things that you might think would be horrible, it wasn't horrible at all. So maybe kind of looking at, or listening, or asking for, What are people telling you? That's painful? I don't know if that sort of addresses your question, Jerry. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, I think so in terms of initiating those conversations about. you know what's happening in your world. And how are you responding to that it actually made me wonder to what extent was Wayne a part of those conversations. To what extent was he involved in that process, especially early on. CeCelia: Well, Wayne wasn't a real chatty guy, but of course, in my heart of hearts I I you know, being married, and so on for decades. I knew what was painful for him, even though he wasn't able to say it, and I knew what was supportive to him. So, from Wayne's perspective, he would never have. It just wasn't part of him to say, well, this is really a crack of crap sort of a thing, you know. He just wouldn't say that so it hang out. Jerry Hoepner: Was it helpful for him to be there when you were having these conversations with Tania. CeCelia: Oh, absolutely just because of the inclusion of the 3 of us you know, and Tania was so skilled in in pulling out a picture off his iPad or whatever, and it wasn't just a picture of him golfing, but it was digging deeper around his golfing, for example. So, it was a springboard for conversation. That Tania would just do over and over and over again, and of course Wayne saw it as golfing, and the fact that oh, he wasn't really golfing 18 holes anymore. And he wasn't, you know, golfing a 92 or an 88, or whatever. And Tania's questions about so what's a birdie, and what's a bogey? And you know Wayne wanted to be helpful at all that. But of course it opened up a whole door of conversation from Tania's professional position in what was happening with his identity. It ends, it. Jerry Hoepner: Go ahead, Tania. Tania Riske: I was gonna say, thank you for really highlighting that, CeCelia, because that was. I guess how I learned so much about Wayne. So, I felt like I could help to better support his identity. So when I, when we were talking about pictures, that was my favorite, because I could see such a peek into what? Who he was? Which was so much better than if I would have brought in, you know, some pre created or commercial therapy products that told me really nothing about Wayne. So that was really something that was just such a great tool. But tool is such an inadequate word for that. It was just. It worked so well for me to learn about Wayne and for Wayne to be able to school me a little bit, too. Sometimes. CeCelia: And it's just an example, I think, of starting where the person in the family are at in in the pictures. Of course, that was, as you said, tool, or whatever it's called. It was like this is who Wayne is, and this is his life. It's like what's painful for him and for me and for us together. So, it was. It was the foundation that guided the discussion, and not something you know, sort of external, that that was sort of put upon us. If you will. Jerry Hoepner: Maybe this is a good time. I jotted a question down as we were talking from a life participation approach to aphasia. Why is it so important that people have this conversation, or that this is a part of our conversations about loss and grief and death and dying? Why is that such an important piece of the life participation approach. CeCelia: I don't know 1 one aspect that I thought about when you asked that, Jerry. It's of course going through the process, and the process never ends of dying and death. It never ends but it's so. It's sort of the day to day, but it's also sort of the memory of that. Now, when I look back 8 months later, I I those are the good things that I have. Those are the times in the bottle that I will keep forever and ever and ever. So, it's not just. Oh! Wayne was discharged. Wayne died on August 20, fifth, etc., etc. It's like, Oh, that that's been my life. So, it's that time in a bottle idea of, you know, one can go with Jim Croce idea. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah. And I think that alone is powerful, that I think some clinicians might feel like, Oh, don't even touch that time in a bottle, because that's sad when you really frame that time in a bottle as something really positive and meaningful for you. And I think that's a really good reframe on the entire lens, of talking about loss and death, and dying. Tania Riske: I feel like so much of that life participation model is also about honoring identity, honoring wishes. Honoring people as individuals, not as impaired patients who we must fix. But instead, as people with lives and dreams, and some of those dreams have just been shattered or maybe they were shattered years ago. But yet they are. These are people with identities who matter as individuals and really honoring that. And I think that's another reason these conversations are important to honor the fact that yes, there will be death, and we want to do kind of right by you and by your family and loved ones with how we approach that and also recognizing these losses that we've been talking about, now honoring those and not just throwing them away, but doing our best to continue to really celebrate honor, embrace individuals and grief anticipating grief. Bosses is all part of that. Nancy Petersen: So, I just have a question because you're typically talking about people who have a progressive situation so that it. Tania Riske: That's true. That's where my lens is a little bit focused right now. But yeah. Nancy Petersen: And so that would be an I don't want to say obvious, but a wise choice to add to those conversations. I wonder if it, I think it needs to be a conversation that's in any in any sort of situation where there has been loss. Even if it's someone who's trying to rehabilitate from a stroke like we talked about, or someone who doesn't have the path of degenerative situations. But maybe that whole thing about how we have a difficult time with loss or recognizing loss would be beneficial, because we would be in a better position when other losses occurred. In other words, that it would make believing, understanding, discussing, recognizing loss in many situations would help us. What happened with what happens when those final losses start to occur. Because I just don't think we look at Change. We try to put a positive spin on change, and there's nothing wrong with coming up with the good reasons for that change, but that we don't recognize the loss that comes with those changes, you know. Yay, Daddy got a new job in a new city, and we're leaving. And then you hear we're having trouble with the teenager, because you know, I know it's hard for her, and we're changing schools and all of this. But if you don't then recognize per loss, even if to you it seems like a lesser concern than the other things that are going on that you're telling people that those losses don't count, or that that emotion isn't important and I'm just thinking about our speech pathologists and the opportunities that they have, or that opportunities any speech pathologist would have after an event or a health event to make to make it more than just, you know. Let's talk about Bill, and how you know our story today, or whatever it is that they're doing. That's sort of the more traditional speech pathology like you mentioned Tania, the typical structured speech pathology session that they would have. Tania Riske: Nancy, that makes me so happy that you kind of bring that up, because that's something. CeCelia and I have had extensive conversations about and that I get really all worked up and excited about is really the role of speech pathologists in counseling in general, you know. Yeah, maybe it is more at times focused on grief. Maybe it's identity other times. But just that whole idea of there is lots and I think speech pathologists have a huge role in acknowledging that supporting that you know, there's lots of conversation going on right now about what kind of education do we need to provide for a speech pathologist to better enable them to counsel and counsel well, and still staying within our scope of practice. Of course, our very respectful boundaries. Nancy Petersen: Absolutely. I can tell you, I can tell you there's very little even in doctor schooling. Oh, I believe they don't get any. They just nobody gets this. So, I love Jerry's been doing and what you're doing. It's just if you have an hour with a person who's coming out of some sort of crisis or medical situation. Why not use it in a way that's beneficial in a larger scope than just working on your t's, or whatever it might be. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah. And this has just been such a fantastic conversation. And I think you've done a really nice job of tying things together in terms of the life participation approach. I mean, if I just take a step back and kind of summarize our conversation, part of what makes an effective interaction is not avoiding those difficult conversations, but leaning into them, asking the questions, creating that safe space, as Tania said, for the conversation, giving permission to discuss those tricky topics. And then just actively listening, beginning where the family and that that individual are at. So, I hopefully, I've some summarized those things. Well, any missing elements that we should discuss before we bring this great conversation to a close. Nancy Petersen: I just appreciate you guys, I don't know the 3 of you that well, and I'm trying not to. I get very excited. And on my soapbox about things that I've witnessed, and things I think we could do better. So, I just want to apologize if I don't know the kind of the framework. But I certainly learned a lot and appreciate very much what you all shared today. So, thank you for that. Tania Riske: I really enjoyed having conversation about things that are so often really kind of dismissed, or nobody wants to talk about that, Nancy. I really appreciated your frankness. I you know your honesty, and just putting out there the things that we tend to be so uncomfortable about. And I think you're so right that these conversations need to happen. And they need to happen outside of the traditional of this context that we're talking about where people are looking down the barrel at loss but also they need to happen at the Thanksgiving table. And now those they just those conversations are so valuable. But yet we do such a stellar job at not having them. So. Thanks for talking about that. Nancy Petersen: No problem. Thank you. Tania Riske: And, CeCelia, I'm always so appreciative and grateful for your willingness to be so vulnerable and to really put so much out there about your lived experience. CeCelia: Thank you. Jerry Hoepner: Well, I want to thank you all for having this conversation. It feels like we could talk for another day, but we'll bring it to a close, for now. Thank you all, and I look forward to more conversations in the future. Tania Riske: Thanks. Jerry. Nancy Petersen: Bye, Jerry. Jerry Hoepner: On behalf of Aphasia Access, thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access and to access our growing library of materials go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast series or topic, email us at [email protected]. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.