Hot Takes with Connie Glynn

Rowan is joined by Connie Glynn, the author of very gay book series The Rosewood Chronicles. Get ready for some truly chaotic Hot Takes about queer cinema - you've been warned 👀 Find Connie here!   Find Us On the line - Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod  - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast - Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/  - Multitude: @MultitudeShows We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout. We're also supported by the Black and gay owned vegan cosmetics company The Butters Hygienics Co. - check them out at https://getthebutters.com/  Production - Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John - Editor: Julia Schifini - Executive Producer: Multitude - Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd   About The Show Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.   Transcript   ROWAN: Just very quickly before we get into the episode, I want to say a huge thank you to two of our patrons over on Patreon who joined the rainbow parent level. Amazing. Thank you so much Jennifer and Toby. Clap, clap, clap. Amazing fireworks. Cheers. The crowd goes wild. If you too would like to be a Rainbow Parent, then head over to patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast. That's one of the perks over there. We also have other levels including access to the Discord, a monthly movie watch-alongs, lists of our recommendations of various Queer Movies. So if that sounds up your alley, check it out. [theme] ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and this is Hot Takes. In Hot takes episodes, I'm joined by a guest who comes ready to go with three queer movie Hot Takes that they will need to persuade me off in three arguments or less. I am very excited to have on the show my friend, Connie Glynn! CONNIE:  Hello. I hope you're all already because chaos is coming.  ROWAN:  I'm very excited. Connie is known for being the author of the extremely gay books, The Rosewood Chronicles, which do not get enough gay street cred as I think they deserve.  CONNIE: They don't, it's like nobody knows it's gay, and it could not be more gay. ROWAN: But there are no heterosexuals in the series. ROWAN: You didn't mean– okay.  CONNIE: Which I didn't mean to do. I just didn't have time to slot them in. ROWAN: Didn't have time to find the time. CONNIE: That's true. ROWAN: They take up so much time those heterosexuals. So yeah, we are going to be going one by one through these Hot Takes. Do you have a specific order for these Connie, that you would like to–  CONNIE:  Yeah. Okay, so let's see. So some of these, I would say are a little spicier, and some I reckon– ROWAN:  Okay. CONNIE: Everyone will agree with and it will take very little persuasion. But that one's also kind of boring. So let's just do that one first. ROWAN:  Okay, we'll get that one out of the way.  CONNIE: Yeah. ROWAN: Give me the hot take. CONNIE: Honestly, I  don't believe even as I'm about to tell you, this Hot Take, that this hasn't already come up. Like I think I'm just going to be preaching with the choir. And that is Simon from, Love, Simon. His friends are actually the worst. ROWAN:  Okay, I'm–Pretend you; we aren't on a Zoom call, and you can't see my face here. I gave nothing away. I was still trapped. Wow, okay, what an interesting hot take, would you like to take me through your reasoning? Because I don't already have an opinion about this. CONNIE: I'm sure this is totally out of the blue and nobody's ever thought of this before. Okay, so let's begin. We live in a world where for some people, coming out is really dangerous, and can literally ruin their lives. And we have this boy Simon, who is this very clean-cut American kid. He's very primed for the possibility that coming out could ruin his life. And then we have this guy who is literally blackmailing him. He's like, if you don't let me hook up with your friend, Abby, then I'm going to out you to the whole school. I'm gonna, like, share these emails about you to the whole school. That is an extremely dangerous position for a young queer kid to be in. That, like, come on, like not to get really deep. I don't know how deep you go on these podcasts. But people literally die over these things. And it all comes out later on that he was messing with his friends' lives, but like barely. Barely. Barely. ROWAN: Just a little nudge. CONNIE: A little nudge.   ROWAN: A little, little, tiny little.  CONNIE: He was like helping this guy, trying and get with Abby like giving him info on what she was into. And they're really mad at him. They're super mad at him, even though they know that he was being blackmailed, that he was literally being blackmailed. And this girl Abby, he even came out to her earlier on. And she has this whole moment where she's like, I'm so glad you came up to me. I know what a big deal this is.  ROWAN: So she/her.  CONNIE: Do you. ROWAN: Do you, Abby. CONNIE: This girl, Leah has the audacity to be upset because she had a crush on him. And it's like, oh my god, do you know how much this hurts me? Specifically that you're gay? It's really a story, really. We're all just; we're just living at it. Here's Leah's story.I hate it. And you know what, I expected when I saw this film, I was waiting for the moment when his friends realized, like, oh, we have to actually be there for Simon, like he's just been publicly outed, and he has no friends. His life could be crumbling around him. Our friend should be put on suicide watch right now. This is a really precarious situation for a teenager to be in. But no, no, the big happy ending is that Simon realizes how cruel he has been to his friends and he apologizes and they accept his apology. Fuck this film, fuck you, fuck everything about it. ROWAN: So yeah, the spoiler that my face gave away was something that I'm pretty sure everyone who has listened to this podcast, even If they haven't listened to the Love, Simon episode that we did do, we'll know is that, I don't like Love,Simon. Made a whole video about it on YouTube. That was like my longest video at that point that I done, because I was just possessed by the need to express how much I agree with this Hot Take essentially, as like a big part of the reasoning why? Yes, agreed. I mean, you don't even have to go on any further. Although please do if you have more ranting points about this movie, and specifically this weird friendship. CONNIE: I do have more ranting points.  ROWAN: Okay, you know what– CONNIE:  You better believe I have more ranting point.  ROWAN: I came in. I came in too soon with the agreement. Pretend like I still need convincing. Maybe there's someone out there that still does go for it. CONNIE: So this has nothing to do with Simon's friends being evil. This is just stupid. This is just all round, like what the hell, come on bisexual people exist. The whole misunderstanding is that he thinks that cool guy called Blue - he’s been exchanging emails with who is the other gay guy at school who is not out. But he sees him kissing a girl. It's then like a big, oh, what? But actually, it's him. And kissing a girl was a misunderstanding. And it's like Simon, babe, bisexual people exist. ROWAN: They are around. CONNIE: You did not need to jump to that conclusion. And I kind of hoped that we would really have that moment where we'd be like, hey, you can't always assume someone's sexuality, like straight passing does not mean that someone is not LGBT. But we don't even; we don't even attempt to discuss them. ROWAN: Do you know the wildest thing is? There's a sequel to the book, at least. Called Leah on the offbeat.  Leah's bisexual sounds like a thing. CONNIE: Oh, come on. Come on, that's great news, I'm so happy. But like, what– what the? I'm going to have a sip of my drink.  ROWAN: Just a little, little sip. CONNIE:  Her story, her being so upset about Simon not being into her, and that being like this cruel thing. And she's really upset that he didn't come up to her first. And that's actually a great plot point. I'm all for that as a plot point. Because that could be a moment of growth for this character Leah, and we could see that on the screen. Like other people that have selfish thoughts about other people's coming out journeys, could learn like, oh, I'm not the center of this, and my feelings are actually kind of irrelevant.  ROWAN: Yeah. CONNIE:  We don't do that. We just don't do that. Because like, she doesn't have to be evil. I don't have to be pissed off at this character, Leah, I could see her growth, but I don't get to see her growth. So instead, I just do not like her. ROWAN:  I agree that there's definitely– there was no reciprocity, either. It didn't even feel like there was a– I'm sorry, and I'm also sorry, it was very much your right on Simon to be like, I am in the wrong. Truly, I've just been so awful this entire time. If Simon was a bad person, fundamentally, there are so many other things he could have done to make the blackmail, like the blackmail of wanting to get with his friend. There's a lot of really bad things he could have done to make that happen. And instead, he's just like, okay, well, I guess what if I just gave him a chance with you? Like, what if I just gave him some info?  CONNIE: The thing that they're really mad at him for, is that he told him to go hard or go home. So the guy does, like a public proposal of romantic intent. And this is humiliating for Abby, almost as humiliating as getting publicly outed. It's like, you should always understand how horrible that feels. And you could both apologize to each other if you insist on having Simon apologize. But it's so weird the way it ends. And it is so much about his apology and him having to realize that he's hurt people. And there's never a moment when the friends are held accountable for their behavior. ROWAN: Why would they be. Haha. CONNIE: You know what I want? I want you to know, The Mean Girls Musical does that revenge party, what I want is an ultimate ending, which is a whole other movie, where this happens, and Simon's like, holy shit, my friends are the worst people on planet earth. And he makes friends with like two other queer people at school, and they orchestrate some kind of horrifying revenge.  ROWAN:  Here's the thing though Connie, that would involve there being more than one queer person in a movie who gets any kind of like, presence or growth like there isn't other queer character. But there's them, like him and Simon don't really interact other than in these very few situations, which is like, firstly, when Simon's like, basically he brings it on himself because he's so effeminate. And then Simon being like, humiliated in the lunch hall alongside this other queer student. CONNIE: The one other yeah. ROWAN: Yeah, and then they like sitting outside the office and Simon not really having the conversation that really like; we actually want him to have this student, which is like, hey, sorry for the fact that I did nothing to support you this entire time. I was going through my own shit, to which the other student will probably be like, fair enough. Like it is very tough and then Simon will be like, but also I feel like maybe I had my own internalized issues because Simon also has this weird bit, where he talks about; he has that fantasy dance sequence, and then he cuts it short. And it's like, maybe I wouldn't be that gay. Eww like gross. And you're like Simon, grow the fuck up.  CONNIE: Oh, wow. ROWAN: There's like a lot of internalized homophobia. But they kind of ignore that at the end. Like, that's not really part of the issue at all. It's mainly how much he needs to apologize to his straight friends. And I'm like, there were so many other interesting things going on within Simon's brain that could have been interesting to explore, like internalized homophobia. Because even though he is this sort of middle-class white, gay guy, who seems to have reasonably supportive parents, it's still scary. And there's still some stuff that you need to unpack within yourself. If you live in a world where homophobia exists, that like that can be internalized, even if it seems like you have a really easy coming out option. But no, they just– they just didn't. They simply did not.  CONNIE: So you agree? ROWAN: I'm persuaded. This first Hot Take, I know that you said that you started on easy mode anyway.  CONNIE: Yeah.  ROWAN: But I agree. And I do, I mean, if anyone out there is like, actually, I disagree. Here is a logical counterargument to Connie. Feel free to tweet the podcast about it because I'd be fascinated to see someone be wrong in our notifications. CONNIE: Yeah. Also, if you do want to defend Love, Simon, you have to like come to my house and discuss it with me in person. ROWAN: You have to look Connie dead in the eyes. CONNIE: Right. ROWAN: And prove your point– CONNIE: In my eyes.  ROWAN: Well, this is also fun, because I do; like me and Jazza have talked about this movie, and Jazza does agree with me. But also Jazza had a very personally invested experience within this movie. And we have talked about some podcasts before, but I would feel remiss if I didn't remind everyone that both of us saw this movie together. Me and Jazza saw this movie together for the first time at the BFI in London. And Jazza cried so hard that I essentially had to bury him in his jacket and his coat. CONNIE: Wait. Tears of joy? ROWAN: No tears of– I don't even; I think it was during one of the coming out scenes. But like the scene ended and Jazza was still sobbing and so in an attempt for him not to die of embarrassment. We had to stifle his sobs with his jacket.  CONNIE: Wow.  ROWAN: It was like onto a fun scene and everyone else was laughing and Jazza was just like, breathing heavily underneath his coat beside me in the BFI and the cell phone. CONNIE: I think the only film that's ever happened to me with was Coco. ROWAN: I mean, that's – CONNIE: I thought I was gonna have to call an ambulance. I was like, I can't breathe from crying so much. ROWAN: Somebody get me an ambulance. I'm in pain. This grandma she's singing- They're crying that much.  CONNIE: Oh, no, she wasn't. She was dead. ROWAN: Sorry, spoiler for Coco. CONNIE: That's why I am crying. ROWAN: Julia, feel free to cut the spoilers for Coco. Because I believe people should see that movie unhindered by Connie's thoughtless spoilers on this podcast.  CONNIE: Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. ROWAN: Amazing. Okay, well, you persuaded me at point number one. It wasn't a difficult challenge for you, but you did do it. But I would, I would love– CONNIE: Yeah. ROWAN: In that case to go on to number two, to go on to the second. CONNIE: Oh, don't worry. This one is Tumultuous! ROWAN: Is it spicy? Spicy one. Tumultuous?! CONNIE: I will say. ROWAN: Okay, that's a, that's an exciting word to hear. CONNIE:  Don't come in. Okay, so I didn't know how to write this down as a Hot Take.  ROWAN: Okay.  CONNIE: It's like three Hot Takes in a trench coat.  ROWAN:  Okay.  CONNIE: I have titled this Hot Take as, Queer Joy Has Gone Too Far. ROWAN: Already. I'm fascinated. The storm is hitting me. I'm in the tornado. Continue.  CONNIE: Okay, so we have like a history, a deep terrible history of Queer coded evil characters.  ROWAN: Yes.  CONNIE: And then we never see that actually do anything explicitly gay. Was ever like a guy sucking off another guy. I don't know what rating this podcast is by the way. ROWAN: Well you can– it's fine. We just– we swear on this podcast, we've talked about. CONNIE: Everything. ROWAN: Jazza is, Jazza is trying to convince me to do an episode where the thick as we go like by genre, so it's like Queer Horror, Queer Comedy. He really wants to do Queer Porn as one of them, so that's the– CONNIE: Oh, I will be there.  ROWAN: You'll be the special guests on that episode as well. CONNIE: I've actually never watched porn in my life.  ROWAN: Okay. CONNIE: I've never. I don't know what it is. ROWAN: This is– it's actually really funny. I'm watching Connie right now and like Pinocchio style, Connie's nose is growing to just extreme lengths as in the background, just a load of fanfiction tabs start opening, frantically in the screen share. CONNIE: Hey, I didn't say I didn't read porn. ROWAN: You know what on a technicality, correct. Okay, so queer; so okay, we had a little queer-coded villains who didn't suck dicks? Yeah. CONNIE:  We have a history of queer-coded villains who didn't suck dicks. Thank you or they didn't eat pussy, whatever you want to go with. Or both, you know? So we've had what I believe to be– ROWAN: A response.  CONNIE: The response to this has been that you mustn't do it. That you can't have these queer code evil characters. I would argue that we should actually lean into the queer code of evil character. And I would like them to be explicitly gay, and also evil. And instead, the recent trend is these like, kind of floofy queer joy, which like, has its place, and I'm totally for it. And a lot of it is very lovely. But it's not sexy, and it's not filled with tension. And it's not really giving the people what they want. Like, where is my Queer Daymond Salvator? Where is my Queer Spike from Buffy? Do you see what I mean? ROWAN:  You know what? I completely see what you mean. I feel like the equivalence actually allow them to be queer is a great one. And I think that what's so weird about this one, is because the aforementioned idea of like, you have one queer character in something, and then a load of straight people, it's like that worry of, I guess from filmmakers, or writers like, oh God, if we make the one queer person, a villain, that's like really bad because it's meant to be saying something. Here's your solution. Just make everyone else gay as well. CONNIE:  Uh huh. And then you can lean into it, you can have your evil character, because let's be real, all of us who grew up reading teen fiction, we like it when the love interest is like, kind of spicy, you know, a little bit of a bad kid. And we just don't get that in queer stories in cinema and books I would even say, and I do always think that one of the problems is that a lot of for lesbians specifically. Lesbians in queer Joy, TV shows and movies, they're usually in a relationship already. Or it's just about like the two lesbians that there are. So you never get this kind of sexual tension. You never get kind of like the mean, asshole lesbian character. You never get somebody to pine over like these girls got to pine over like Damon and Spike. ROWAN: I feel like that they don't make them villains, It just kind of makes them annoying. Like if they're going to do anything, It's like oh, look at this annoying lesbian going on about burning her bra or like something like that. Just like one of my favorite films of all time does this, which is Pride. Where it's just a bit like the lesbians if they're not like completely perfect lovely people, are just kind of annoying. And so I yeah, I feel like having this– I'm trying to think of examples that we have of explicitly. I mean, for those who have watched the Listen to the They/Them episode of this podcast, which is I again truly; whatever as you think about that movie, an iconic title. They slash them for a slasher– CONNIE: The Slasher. ROWAN: For a Slasher movie.  CONNIE: Yeah.  ROWAN: Chef's kiss. That's called Queer Villain Energy on it. Do revenge, which I don't know if you have watched. CONNIE: Yeah, I've watched. ROWAN:  Yeah, is kind of like a tempting to get to that area a little bit, but I feel like didn't. For my taste go hard enough into the– CONNIE: Yes, I agree. They didn't go hard enough. Because if they'd really leaned into her being this like super evil, villainous character, and then the two of them being perfect for each other and not into like, because we're best friends way. ROWAN: We're like, evil, soulmates, evil revenge getting Queer soulmate sort of been.  CONNIE:  Yes. And then, then you have this like, lesbian power couple, that like young lesbians can be like, oh my God. Like, I wouldn't be into this in real life. But it's such a fantasy for me. These kinds of toxic girls who could like have me wrapped around their finger and be like, mean to me. ROWAN:  Badass vibes.  CONNIE:  You know? It's fun. Fantasies like that are fun. ROWAN:  Jennifer's Body arguably has that energy. CONNIE: Yeah, that's a great point. ROWAN: Which is that whole movie is, yes queer villain energy with tongue-in-cheekness to it. But I agree with like, when as soon as you were like a queer spike, I was like, oh, man, you're right. Like that kind of toxic love interest, like heart throb character, who's allowed to have that kind of nuance and be kind of an asshole about it.  CONNIE: Yeah. ROWAN: This is making a lot of sense, this is all adding up. I'm on my little count. I'm on my graphic calculator just doing some sums and it's all adding up to me. CONNIE: Yeah, these are the kinds of things you usually have to go to fanfiction for, because people just aren't putting it in popular media.  ROWAN: That's true.  CONNIE: But this is what we want. We want a toxic, sexy person in there. And if it's like Connie and Rowan endorse toxic romantic love interests. ROWAN: Please. I think everybody knows this.  CONNIE: About me, my biggest ship is Sauron and Morgoth. ROWAN:  This is very– Yeah. For anyone who knows Connie, it is completely unsurprising, but also kind of fun because as we mentioned before, Connie is the writer of some very sweet, middle grade. CONNIE: Yeah. Were mind are full of queer joy.  ROWAN: Yeah. CONNIE: So even I– ROWAN: But you also; but everyone's gay and so the villains are also gays. So it's– CONNIE: Exactly. ROWAN: It all works now. CONNIE: Exactly. We have a character who I wrote very specifically as the standing for the fact that I couldn't find in any other media, these kinds of like slightly toxic but also like fun, hot, queer love interest. My cat is screaming in the background, my cat is screaming, yeah. ROWAN: In agreement. And in case everyone's like, wow, I can't believe that Connie wrote these toxic love interests such as the; There is also a scene in which these girls like fully kiss in a cloud of powdered sugar. If you're wondering how sweet the other end of the spectrum got, that feels like the highest level of sweetness you can get to be honest and in a sweet factory. CONNIE: In a sweet factory. But also to be very clear, my like, toxic; You can't see me but I'm doing like inverted commas. ROWAN: Air quote. CONNIE: My toxic love interest; He's all about consent, the like, big moment with him is that he asks for permission because it's like, I want you to have this fun queer character to pine over. But I also want you to understand what is actually okay and what is not. ROWAN: What the level of toxic we're talking about here. Just like I want you to be evil with me, but like, I want you to want to be evil with me. Like, I want you to come to the dark side, but like in a way where you know what you're getting into, love that.  CONNIE: Absolutely. ROWAN: I feel like this makes a lot of sense. Do you have any examples of queer media where you were like, you just; other than I guess, Do Revenge or you've just talked about like, this is what it needed, you just need to push it a little bit farther. Or if only we had like had a queerness within this relationship it would have made much more sense.  CONNIE: Shego from Kim Possible, which is so embarrassing to say because like everybody always was like, she gave my best quick crash, like bla bla bla. Has anyone had an original thought in their life? But she is so prime, she's like very sarcastic, she's got that like femme fatale energy. And if she had been gay, I would have realized a long time ago that I was a lesbian. ROWAN: That's fair enough. I feel like that's–I made a video on my channel a while ago that was like, children's characters who should have been gay. And like, as soon as I talked about it, every single comment was like, Shego better be on this list. Like before they'd even watched it, they were like, I can already predict. I know what's going on here, because you're absolutely right. That was such a; already people were crushing.  CONNIE: Yeah. ROWAN: So it just kind of made sense. That tension between her and Kim, Oh Kimmy, Kimmy. CONNIE: Oh Kimmy. Well, that's what Shego calls her, she calls her Kimmy. Oh, thought it would be great. ROWAN: It'll just make sense. CONNIE: Yeah, but I have one more, because it's the autumn season. ROWAN: Okay. CONNIE: And everyone is rewatching Gilmore Girls. Another kind of slightly toned-down version that would have been perfect was Paris. And I always felt when I was watching Gilmore Girls that Paris should have been a lesbian. She has such like power lesbian energy. And if I could live in the alternate universe where Paris gets to be one of Laury's love interests, because some of Laury's love interests are toxic. Anyway.  ROWAN: Yeah. CONNIE: So I just would like to have seen that. I would like to have seen them have a moment. ROWAN: That makes total sense. And I think also, I guess like me, I guess similar energy is Elle in Legally Blonde and the love interest; the secondary love interests for her ex, for Warner's ex.  CONNIE: Vivian. ROWAN: That makes sense to me. Vivian. Yes. I 100% would have gotten on board with all of that happening. Just Elle being bisexual in general, chef's kiss.  CONNIE:  Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it would be such an easy one to edit, because they do that thing where they have the kind of the little narrative written.  ROWAN: But at the end, just like– CONNIE: You know what I mean. ROWAN: Vivian and Elle just got together, don't question it. The end.  CONNIE: They were soulmate.  ROWAN: It just makes sense. I think most queer girls and honestly, I think even straight girls understand or had the experience of a really intense female friendship like a really intense, especially when you're like at school and you see this girl every single day, and you have sleepovers with her and you like, I feel like so many people have this experience, which then makes so much sense on screen to me that it can go a various different ways. And one of the ways is that really intense, slightly obsessive toxic like we are everything to each other style, queer romance, that could absolutely veer into the villainous as much as it could veer into the very sweet couple, who just really like an old married couple from the moment that they meet. So I think it's just realistic, you know. CONNIE: It is. And also, I don't know how common this is with other lesbians. But with those really intense best friend friendships, it's almost like you look back at some of them, you're like we were kind of toxic. ROWAN: We were like too intense. CONNIE: Maybe we were really mean to each other. ROWAN: I think that's, maybe that's just you. But I appreciate your candid honesty on this podcast, Connie.  CONNIE: Everyone saved this one for my therapist. ROWAN: But I do, like I'm convinced. I feel like we have the space for bubblegum, cute sweet cotton candy, queer joy storylines, but also let the gays be evil sometimes as well. CONNIE:  Thank you. Glad I could convince you of that. ROWAN:  Let us be the super; Although I will say if Marvel decided to make their fucking first big old gay character, a super villain. That does seem very on-brand and that supervillain probably will be dead by the end, so thanks.  CONNIE: Oh yeah.  ROWAN: Thank you marvel for that in advance. That feels and Disney as well. The first Disney prince and the princess are, in fact, evil. That seems like it, that tracks.  CONNIE: Oh, I'm kind of into that. So we've got like, but as long as this evil character ends up with the Disney princess. ROWAN: Oh, you know, what? Isn't that basically the plot of Raya and the last Dragon? CONNIE: Don't even get me started, ruining the Last Dragon. I was watching that film with my mom. And we're both just looking at each other like, what the hell, like when are they going to kiss? ROWAN: That's gay. CONNIE: That; you know what that is the perfect example of this of like, we have this really intense female friendship when they were younger. And then we have this like character, who's been driven to villainy by her conformity to her society and to her family, and now is coming back for revenge and, and then they kiss. ROWAN: It always these characters actually exist. And if they'd be one queer writer in the room, or if queer people are allowed to actually say anything, then we would have had this already and we wouldn't be discussing it in a podcast. CONNIE: There we go. [Theme] ROWAN:  At this point in the podcast, I just wanted to thank Squarespace for sponsoring us very exciting. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-one place to do, basically all of it. You can build the site, you can set up an online shop, you can connect with your audience. We use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Pod website if you've ever had a little peruse at that. But I am particularly proud of my own website, which was also made on Squarespace. Because I've never relaxed the day in my life. I have a ton of projects and social platforms, things like that. And so Squarespace not only lets you link to different pages into your social media but also connects them specifically so you can display posts from your social profiles on the site. There's also really good analytics and insights that can help you to grow your brand. So if you need to figure out, where are people even finding me? 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And when you're ready to launch, you can use offer code queer movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. We also want to say a huge thank you to the Butter hygienics company, who amazing that we have a black and queer-owned business sponsoring the podcast. I am so excited about this. So essentially, this is an affordable, very luxurious vegan brand. They make handmade products like your skin, your hair, your body, your bath, and your bedroom. Oh, hello. It is owned by Jerome Nichols, who is a black gay autistic guy who started the company because he wanted better products for better prices, and also is the owner/maker, so makes these products as well and the prices are great. So every single product there is between $5 and $25. There's a ton of value packs to save even more, free shipping on orders over $40 and they're currently running their biggest sale ever with 35% off orders like sale and clearance included. 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And finally, if you have been listening to this Podcast so far, and you're like, I really love what's going on here, I want more of this, but I have listened to the entire backlog of the Queer Movie Podcast. Well, let me introduce you to another podcast from the multitude collective, Spirits. Spirits, as I've said before on this podcast, was the multitude show that I listened to first. It was my gateway, my gateway into Multitude. It's amazing. It is hosted by the wonderful Amanda and the amazing Julia, who edits this very podcast. It is essentially like a cross between a history and a comedy podcast with some storytelling in there. And it talks about everything: Folklore, Mythology and the Occult. Love it, but specifically through the lens of the hosts and their guests. So that might be through the lens of Feminism, Queerness, Adult, Modern Adulthood, Modern Life, incredible stuff. Every week, they tell stories, they dig into Mythology, they do a ton of research. They tell listeners stories, which are some of my favorite episodes of weird Folklore or Legends in their towns, over drinks, Spirits get it. It's got a double meaning iconic, and that includes like everything from Mythology that you've never heard of before to things that maybe you think you're familiar with, like Werewolf Mythology, but looking at it from, you know, cultures that you may not have heard their specific Werewolf Legends. And the good news is if you are looking for a podcast to dive into, they have over 300 episodes released over the past six years and you don't have to have, you know what, listen to them in order. You can go through, check out the titles, see what kind of vibes with you. There is so much to enjoy in this podcast. Whether you want to analyze mental health and Mythology or listen to some creepy modern ghost stories. I highly recommend you dive in at spiritspodcast.com or search for Spirits wherever you download your podcasts. [theme] ROWAN: Well, then we got. I mean, I'm convinced about the second one. So I feel like we can go on to the finale. CONNIE: Oh yeah.   ROWAN: I don't know whether this is the spiciest take, is that why you've left her last? CONNIE: It's a take.  ROWAN:  Okay. CONNIE: It's a take. It's something I have taken from my mind. ROWAN: Excellent. I mean, that's why we came up with this format, honestly, just to have some unhinged vibes, as well as a well-thought-out point.  CONNIE: This podcast exists. This podcast was created for this moment.  ROWAN: Okay. Okay. Give it to me.  CONNIE: You guys can't see the eyes that I'm making right. ROWAN: The crazy faces that I'm seeing. It's also great because since we started recording, the sun has gone down. And so Connie is also just in the darkness. CONNIE: I actually am the, the evil queer-coded character that TV warned you about. ROWAN: Yeah, I didn't want to say it. But essentially, that second take was, I just want to see myself on screen from Connie, which I also respect. CONNIE: So this last one, and it's not just a personal preference. I'm going to preface by saying that I genuinely believe that this would be better for all people involved.  ROWAN: Okay. CONNIE: Edward Cullen should have been played by Kristen Stewart. ROWAN: I would like to just very quickly ask a clarifying point. Would she also have been playing Bella?  CONNIE: No.  ROWAN: Okay. That felt important to us.  CONNIE: That's a really good question. I'm glad you asked.  ROWAN: I just like to understand the full scope of the Hot Take, before I get to the questioning. Okay, so, so explain what you've just brought to the table.  CONNIE: So, Edward Cullen, I don't know how familiar people are with westerns, but he has a real cowboy energy to him. He is a recluse. He's kind of lived alone. It's always part of his identity, that even though he would quite like to form relationships, he feels the burden of his lonesome soul. And that he must be alone because he's a ramblin man.  ROWAN: Yeah. CONNIE: He is doomed to this life. This is a very cowboy approach to life. And it's like a common thing that is addressed within cowboy movies, westerns. ROWAN: So can I just quickly say, so far you've made a very good argument for why Twilight should have been a Western. I'm waiting for the bit of this argument that then brings queers you're into it. So please, please continue. I'm sold already on a totally different Hot Take, but I'm; I'm back in it. CONNIE: Kristen Stewart is a fucking cowboy. She is a fucking cowboy. She is not a demure girl. She's not a sweet little girl who needs saving. She's not the project you love. She is a fucking cowboy. If you've ever seen an interview with her where she's like driving her car, and she's like holding a cigarette, and she's chatting and flirting with the person she's talking to, but in a way that gives you a sense that she is this distant soul that you cannot really engage with. She's Edward Cullen. She's Edward Cullen through and through. Her as a human being. She is more Edward Cullen than Robert Pattinson will ever be able to understand. ROWAN:  So okay, here's the thing. I don't disagree with this. And I would go so far as to say that Bella Swan feels a lot of emotions under the surface and doesn't necessarily fill them on the surface, an outsider to this town. I don't see a reason why Robert couldn't play Bella. I've seen that boy in the behind the scenes of Harry Potter. He notoriously didn't speak to anyone, he just sat in a corner awkwardly. And no one really knows, we're just like, oh, no, I guess Robert's in this movie. And I truly feel like that's Bella Swan energy.  CONNIE: He's Bella Swan. ROWAN: I think he's Bella Swan. And I think she's Edward Cullen. CONNIE: Yeah, they got it the wrong way round. Like the fundamental issue with these films, is that they cast these characters the wrong way around. ROWAN: This is genius. This is the gender swap of it all. Although if we did go with it being a queer movie where Bella is played by a girl, who are we thinking works as an option. CONNIE: Alongside her. ROWAN: Alongside.  CONNIE: Now this is great, this is what I – I stay up all night thinking about, like who should have been Bella Swan in my superior Christian Sue Edward Cullen Universe. ROWAN: Yeah, I'd be disappointed if you hadn't stayed up all night thinking about this. I alternatively will allow you to give me an offer of who could play Edward if Robert was playing Bella. I mean, obviously, they could all just be bisexual and they would still be a queer movie. But if we were casting two girls/two boys/ some non binary people involved. What are we thinking?  CONNIE: Holy shit. There's so many options. So who is my like gay Edward Cullen. ROWAN: Who's my gay Edward Cullen. CONNIE: Who's my gay cowboy Edward Cullen. I don't know. How old is Edward? He's like 20.  ROWAN: Edwards, oh, I don't actually know when he– Oh, no. I'm really hoping that he– I don't know why thinking oh, if he died when he was 18 that makes it any better that he's like 300 years old. Like, oh, yeah, it's fine. As long as his body is out of a new born teen.  CONNIE: It goes back around. It goes back around. It goes back around. Once you hit 150 years old. It's okay. Again. ROWAN: That's just vampire law. That's how it works.  CONNIE: Exactly. The older you get And you get the more okay it is. ROWAN: The better it is. Sure.  CONNIE: Like 2000 years old. Absolutely Okay. No one is arguing with that. ROWAN: I'm literally. I'm literally like, what if I just Google cowboy actors? And I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna be a– if I just search gay cowboy actors. I don't think it's gonna give me what I need. CONNIE: You know what I would love. I would love Twilight, but it is– Mark Hamill, as Bella Swan.  ROWAN: Yes.  CONNIE: Come on. You can fill in the blank. ROWAN: Wait, Harrison Ford? CONNIE: Yeah.  ROWAN: Oh, no. You're correct. Did you just invent Star Wars? Did you just invent Star Wars? CONNIE: I think I just improved Star Wars. ROWAN: That's– You know what? You're not wrong. That makes complete sense. There's too many of these, too many of these. You know, these young up and coming actors have sociable charisma. You know what I mean? Tom Holland is never gonna be an Edward or a Bella.  CONNIE: No. ROWAN: The boy has too much light behind his eyes.  CONNIE: But Zendaya, the guy can be an Edward.  ROWAN: Oh, yes. It's annoying that we need Bella. We need to find a girl. CONNIE: I find her so hard to cast. I think Bella is hard to cast because everyone reads that book and just imagines themselves on Bella. ROWAN: That's fair. Are you playing Bella alongside? CONNIE: I'm Bella Swan, let's do it. I think I would be the worst Bella Swan in the whole world. Like if you put me in that situation where I met a vampire. I would just be like, are you fucking kidding? Bite me right now. ROWAN:  No restraint. Absolutely zero. CONNIE:  I would have joined the Volturi. I would have been like, I want to wear one of these sexy velvet outfits. ROWAN: Oh my god. I love it. This– I mean, like you. I don't know whether you had any other points for this take or whether– it was just vibes. CONNIE: I mean, I feel like the point I wanted to make was that Kristen Stewart is a kind of Edward Cullen. ROWAN: Is a cowboy. CONNIE: And she's a cowboy. I'm not even one of these, like hardcore Kristen Stewart fan girl lesbians. I think like, yeah, she's cool, she's hot,she's awkward,she's weird. She's fucking cowboy. She's not for us. She's for the road. ROWAN: This was like so– a long way round to make that point. Like you could have just been like, I think Kirsten Stewart should play a cowboy, should be cast as a lead in a western. That would have all the loans. I really respect that you just took this point so hard, all the way around the house is incredible. Because also yeah, now I'm thinking about it. And I'm like, I would 100% watch your West. I mean, like, I would not watch a Western for basically any other reason other than it being gay. Let's be real here. CONNIE: Oh, I've got some news for you.  ROWAN: Okay. CONNIE: A lot of westerns are extremely queer coded.  ROWAN: In which case. CONNIE: Have you heard about  Brokeback Mountain? ROWAN: Have you ever heard? I just Google Kristen Stewart cowboy. And there is an incredible image of her with a cowboy hat photoshopped on. I was really hoping that I was going to come up with a Kristen Stewart cast in a cowboy movie. CONNIE: Wasn't there a movie where she played like that female serial killer. That murderer? ROWAN: Yeah, it is called. It's like one. It's the name– Lizzie. CONNIE: Something gay from mother– Lizzie Borden.  ROWAN: That's the one. CONNIE: Yeah,what happened to that? ROWAN:  So she did the villain thing.  CONNIE: She did do the sexy villain thing.  ROWAN: She did. She did like your second Hot Take. That's the range. The range that she has. CONNIE: Come on Kristen, I want to see you in a cowboy movie. ROWAN: You've done vampire. You've done murderer. You've done like a weird arthouse film. The only thing left is a cowboy. Surely we’re due for a Renaissance. CONNIE: I mean, I guess she's giving me cowboy in her day to day life.  ROWAN: Yeah. And you know that's enough for us. We don't oppress you into making those kinds of career decisions. Kristen as we know, you're listening to this obviously. Longtime listener, first time caller of the show, Kristen Stewart coming to a guest episode soon. I can only dream. CONNIE: If she does a Western, I too will be coming. ROWAN: For the benefit of the general public. I'm shaking my head and ashamed of this call. CONNIE: And I'm raising a bottle. ROWAN:  Raising, raising your glass. I mean that yeah, that's– I think you've– I think this was a clean sweep. This was a ding ding ding for all three of these Hot Takes. And you– This was very good, because I did send you a list of all of the Hot Takes. And there were already some on that list that you were into. So you've pulled so many Hot Takes out. You had them so ready to go, which I knew immediately as soon as I invited you. There would not be a problem with you having Hot Takes, it was just, which one you were going to choose. And I think you chose very well. CONNIE: I know, there were too many, there were so many to choose from. I'm not gonna lie. I actually forgot I was doing this podcast, until I messaged you earlier being like, I don't think I have a microphone. ROWAN: Just trying to get out of it. And I was like, Good. Nice try. But unfortunately, we have to record these episodes to give to Julia to edit or it doesn't go out. And that's not an option.  CONNIE: Yeah, I just– I really pulled these out of my Hot Take.  ROWAN: You did very well.  CONNIE: My Hot Ass Take. Thank you. ROWAN: Yeah. CONNIE: I'm–I'm thrilled.  ROWAN: Thank you so much. CONNIE: Do-what do I win? ROWAN: Um, absolutely nothing. Um, you–there is no prize other than just a sense of having power over me and that you managed to persuade me of something. And I think  that sense of power should be enough for you. That seems like the kind of thing you'd be into anyway, so thank you very much Connie for joining this nice and chaotic Hot Takes episode, they always are. Except weirdly, Alex's– I feel like Alex's Hot Take episode was very logical. Which is bizarre because Alex is the most chaotic person that I can think of. He does the are they gay videos on YouTube.Yeah, no even more chaotic than you, somehow. That is everyone for another episode of the Queer Movie Podcast. Please let us know on the socials, whether you agreed with these Hot Takes/ if you are a supporter of the Patreon on the Discord. I'd love to hear about it and see if you can persuade me back again to disagree with these, to disagree that Kristen Stewart is a cowboy. Because I would love to hear the very logical arguments for and against. If you've enjoyed the episode, then please make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast, so you're primed for our next. One of these bits of nonsense on the podcast app of your choice. And as I said, consider following us on Patreon because we do some cool stuff over there including monthly queer movie watch alongs on our Discord. And you can also follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram for some behind the scenes content as and when Jazza and I remember to do so. [Theme] ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of multitude productions, which has a lot more amazing sibling podcasts that you should definitely check out. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast, So you are primed for our next episode. Thank you so much for listening, and hopefully you will hear from us very soon.   Transcriptionist: Kristianne Benganio Editor: KM