Episode 205 Zoei's VBAC + Birthing With an Unsupportive Provider

“I decided to start listening to my body instead of the doctor…”In preparation for her VBAC, Zoei found a wonderful midwife and a VBAC Link-trained doula. She did her research and stayed patient as her pregnancy carried on past 41 weeks. Once labor started, she was in it for the long haul. Unfortunately, a hospital shift change brought a new, unsupportive doctor who Zoei had never met. She felt the energy change. She recognized the fear tactics, but stood her ground.  You will find yourself both gasping and cheering with Zoei as you listen to her inspiring VBAC story! Zoei ends with her best tips on how to navigate labor when you unexpectedly find yourself under the care of an unsupportive provider. Additional linksThe VBAC Link Doula DirectoryThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Find a Truly Supportive ProviderThe VBAC Link Blog: Family-Centered CesareansHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be with you today. I am hoping that it is Wednesday or maybe you’re just listening all over and it’s a Tuesday or a Saturday, but this is Wednesday and we are so excited to be back with you with another amazing story as usual. We have our friend, Zoei, today. She is from Washington and she is going to share her VBAC story with you. We’re going to talk a little bit about unsupportive providers, so if you are finding yourself stuck in that spot of not having a supportive provider, stick around because we are going to be sharing some tips. She’s even got a name to give you if you are in Washington, so hang tight and listen up for that. Review of the WeekMeagan: Before we dive into her amazing story, we are going to do, of course, a Review of the Week. This review is on Apple Podcasts and it says, “I got my VBAC. I am four days out from my VBAC. I told my husband today it was the greatest accomplishment of my life thus far. Thank you Julie and Meagan and all of the women of strength who have shared their stories. I cried so many times on my daily walks while listening to this podcast including the day before my TOLAC started. It was truly inspiring and one of my main resources in preparing for my VBAC and I will continue to listen to every new episode.”Well, this is from jmclane04, and thank you for your review. Congrats on your VBAC and I hope that you are still sticking around so you can hear your review today.Zoei’s story Meagan: Okay, Zoei. Thank you so much for being here with us today. I can’t wait to hear your story and how you navigated through working with a not-so-supportive provider.Zoei: Yeah, absolutely. I’m really excited to be here. Meagan: Well welcome, welcome. Dive right in. Zoei: All right. So when I had my son, he was ten days past due when I had him. He had been breech up until he was about 35 weeks. I had been really concerned about it actually because I know that breech can’t run in the family, but my brother was breech, my mother was breech, her mom was breech and I didn’t even know that that could happen. They were all breech so I was really concerned about it. I talked to my midwife and fortunately, my son flipped at about 39.5 weeks right before that cutoff where we would have to do something. Meagan: Oh yeah and kind of nerve-wracking. Zoei: Incredibly nerve-wracking because COVID was happening and we weren’t sure what the hospital policies were. They were changing nonstop so I was really anxious about it. But thankfully, he did flip at 39.5 weeks. It was crazy because when he flipped, I actually got this feeling of dread. I was so worried that something bad was going to happen to him or me during birth. I just couldn’t shake it. Whenever anything bad is going through my head, I usually just try to write it down to get it out, but every time I wrote it down, it would almost be a goodbye letter to my husband. Meagan: Oh. Zoei: I just could not shake it for the life of me which is crazy because I had complete faith in my body. I truly believe that our bodies are made to birth and that my body could do it, but I was just really afraid for the first time and it was the instant I found out he had flipped. So at 9 days past my due date, I woke up at 5:30 in the morning and I was getting this lower back pain pretty consistently and I was starting to go into labor. My husband hung out with me all day and we just were really chill for the whole day. By about 10:00 p.m., the midwife said that I was good to go into the birth center. My contractions were about two minutes apart, a minute each. But the thing was that even though I had been in labor that long and my contractions were so close together, I didn’t feel like anything was changing or adjusting in my body if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. No, yeah. Totally. I mean, that’s something that we talk about with our doula clients is that sometimes that pattern reflects really close to go-time, but that doesn’t always mean that physically inside things are changing the way that you would think the pattern would show. Zoei: Yes. I had watched my best friend give an all-natural, unmedicated birth to her daughter and what I saw happening with her was not physically happening to me. I could think through each contraction and it just felt like the contractions were all that was happening. My son was still moving. He was doing good, but nothing was changing in my body which was kind of adding to my feeling that something was wrong. We get to the birth center at about midnight and my midwife checks me. I’m barely a centimeter dilated if that. Meagan: Mmm. Zoei: Yes. She’s about to send me home. She’s like, “You’re a first-time mom. It happens. It’s just one of those things.” She sits and watches me for a few contractions and she was like, “You know, I think I’m going to have you stay for a little bit if you’re okay.” Absolutely. She has me lying in bed. My husband is behind me so I lay into him through each contraction. My midwife gave me these pills. I’m not quite sure what they were, but it was to ease any anxiety between each contraction. Meagan: Oh, I can see it because I have had a client that has been given them. Did you put it under your tongue?Zoei: Yes. Meagan: Yeah. Oh, what is it? I’m going to think about it. We’ll come back, but I have had clients that have had that and it did help them. Zoei: Perfect. Yes. Yes, and it did. I was laying into my husband between each contraction and relaxed and then went through the next one. My midwife was telling me to vocalize between each contraction, but I didn’t have an urge to do that. I didn’t really need to which was another thing that just felt a little odd for birth.So it was midnight when that happened. At about 5:00 a.m., my midwife woke me up because I had actually fallen asleep. My contractions had basically stopped. So 24 hours after they started, they stopped all on their own. She asked if she could do a cervical check because she wanted to know what was going on. I agreed and she does a cervical check. The first thing she says is, “Wow, you’re handling this really well,” because I guess some people get pain with cervical checks. But the instant she did it, I felt almost a relief of pressure inside.She finishes. I still haven’t really dilated. She tells me that she thinks that my son is stuck behind my pelvis and she would like to transfer me to the hospital. As soon as she said that, I had this wave of relief like maybe I haven’t been crazy this whole time. Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: We go to the hospital. We check-in. It’s COVID, so there’s not really anyone in the labor and delivery other than those needed. We honestly just had the best experience from there. My midwife met us at the hospital and she was like, “These are the options that we have for you. We’re pretty sure he’s stuck behind your pelvis.” We didn’t know the gender at the time, so she was just saying, “The baby”. We had the option to do Pitocin to possibly jumpstart my contractions. She said, “It could push the baby into where he needs to be, but you can be in labor for up to three days or we can do a C-section.” I took a moment to talk to my husband. Hearing that Pitocin could push my baby into where he needed to be sounded so scary to me. I’m like, “I don’t like to be pushed as an adult. I don’t want to push my newborn and possibly hurt him.”So we decided to do a C-section. It was really amazing because I had a really hard time coming to that conclusion. The midwife came in and she asked how we were feeling. I started asking all of these questions about C-sections because I was stalling. I didn’t want to say that I wanted a C-section because it felt like giving up.My midwife looks at me and says, “You have permission to have a C-section. It is okay if that is what you need to do. You’ve done everything you can.” I just started crying. It was just exactly what I needed to hear. Meagan: Because you felt relief? Yeah.Zoei: Yes. Yes. I needed to know that it was okay for me to do that. We were so lucky. I hadn’t done any research on C-sections at all. Every single person that was going to be in my birth room took the time to come in and introduce themselves. They told me exactly what they were doing, and asked me what I wanted out of this birth. They offered me the clear drape. I didn’t even know that was a thing, so I was incredibly fortunate. We get into the room for the C-section. They do the spinal tap. They bring my husband in afterward. I get really nauseous. The anesthesiologist is on top of it. He gives me medication to help with it. At this point, I was just so exhausted and everything felt fuzzy, but I was still there which was nice.They started to lift my son out of me and we didn’t know the gender. They lifted him up and I just remember the umbilical cord was in the way, so we still didn’t know if it was a boy or a girl. They moved the umbilical cord. We found out it was a boy and we were so excited. All of a sudden, everyone in the room was taking bets on how much he was going to way. They were like, “Oh my gosh, he’s huge.” It was just such a lighthearted, wonderful thing. My son was 10 pounds, 1 ounce and it was just great. We were so excited. They put him on my chest and something that I’ll never really forget though is that they put him on my chest and I couldn’t even feel excited. I was just so exhausted and I had so many drugs running through my system. I looked at my husband and I asked him to take our son. I was like, “I’m just so tired.” My husband scooped him up on me. They finished sewing me up and they wheeled me back. I was sweating so much that they couldn’t even stick anything on me. Everything was sliding off. I remember all of those small things. When it was time for me to get to bond with my son, I felt really protective of him but I wouldn’t say that I had that immediate love for him. I would do anything for him. I would make sure he was okay. But everyone always talks about this overwhelming sense of love you have as soon as your baby is born. I just felt really protective over him and it took a little bit for that love to come in. But it did. I was able to breastfeed him and we had an amazing breastfeeding journey for about 20 months. When my son was about a year and a half, my husband and I decided to try for another baby. We got pregnant right away. At this point, we had moved to Wenatchee, Washington. As soon as we found out we were pregnant, my husband actually started calling the midwives and the birth centers. That’s how we found out that they don’t do VBACs here in Washington.I started doing a lot of research and I found an amazing provider. Her name is Bridget Kamen and she was the most amazing provider I could have found. Something else I wanted to add is that after I had my son, my midwife had come in and she was like, “You would be an amazing candidate for a VBAC.” My husband was like, “What’s a VBAC?” He looked at me and asked. I thought it was a vacuum birth. I didn’t know. That’s how little I knew. Meagan: Vacuum, VBAC. I mean, V. Vacuum. Zoei: Yes. I just assumed that because my son was stuck, she was saying that in case the next one is, it could be a vacuum birth. Meagan: I could totally see how you would have related that. I really do. Zoei: I just had no idea. It’s crazy that once you have a C-section, it’s like a stamp. You are forever a VBAC or another C-section. I had no idea. But you don’t know what you don’t know. So back to being pregnant with my second, I found the most amazing provider and I knew right away that I would need support. I was so worried about a hospital because you hear those horror stories about how you just get pushed around and bullied in a hospital sometimes. Meagan: It can happen. Zoei: Yes. I don’t think that’s normal, but I know that it can happen and I didn’t want to have to feel like I was fighting. So I messaged a couple of doulas. I met up with them and they weren’t the right fit for me. Then I remembered that The VBAC Link has a full list of doulas that are certified through you guys and I really wanted someone that knew about VBAC. I went and looked at your list. There was a small handful in Washington, but one of them was in Wenatchee. I reached out. Her name is Christine Potter and she was amazing. The instant I met her, I knew that she was perfect. She was so warm and kind and supportive. I remember my son was just running around everywhere at this cafe where we met. She looks at me and she goes, “There’s a park down the street. Do you want to walk there?” We started walking to the park and it was icy. I’m holding my son and I almost slip. She didn’t even hesitate. She reached over, picked up my son out of my arms, and started walking with him instead. I knew right away that she was perfect. She preemptively helped with everything before I even realized that I needed help. Meagan: That’s how it should be though. Zoei: Yes, yes. It was amazing. She saw my needs before even I realized that I needed them. She was like that throughout the entire pregnancy. I had a really normal pregnancy. With my first, I gained about 70 pounds, and then with this one, I gained about 50. I was walking. I was a lot more active. You can’t sit around as much when you have a toddler. Around 36 weeks, my doctor and I sat down and were talking about what I’m looking for with my birth. She’s like, “I know you said you don’t want to be induced. What is that looking like for you?” I was like, “Well, I would really prefer not to be induced. I don’t want Pitocin. I don’t want an epidural. I’d really like for my body to do things as naturally as possible.” She was like, “Okay. If you change your mind, just let me know.” That was the whole conversation. It was amazing. Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: She knew that my son was 10 pounds, 1 ounce. Every now and then, she’d ask if this baby felt any larger. I was like, “I really couldn’t even tell you. It’s such a different pregnancy. I wouldn’t know.” At about 36 weeks, every time I went in, the nurse that would check me in would ask me if I was ready for my cervical check. Each time, I would say, “No, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you.” At 38 weeks, I decided to ask my doctor, “Hey. I’ve done my research, but is there really any reason for a cervical check that I should know about?” It was really nice because she was just really upfront and really honest. She was like, “No. There is honestly no reason for a cervical check unless you want a membrane sweep or if you are just interested in where your body is at. It doesn’t make a difference and it doesn’t do anything,” which was perfect. When I hit 39 weeks, my older sister came to stay with us. We don’t have any family in the area, so she was here to be here until we had the baby to be able to watch our son. Over the next week up until my due date, we were walking every day. We were being really active and just trying to get the baby out. I hit 40 weeks and my husband and I sit down. We decided that at my next doctor’s appointment, I would ask for a membrane sweep. I would do a cervical check, get the membrane sweep, and go from there. Because my son was so late, I just had it in my head that if I went past 41 weeks, it would hit that spot for me of starting to be more afraid of a VBAC and the reality of it. I didn’t want to be thinking about a C-section while I was working so hard for this VBAC. At 41 weeks and 3 days, I go to my doctor’s appointment to do a membrane sweep. I get there and the nurse is– it was really crazy because the nurse who had been asking if I wanted the cervical check each time was like, “I can’t believe you’re still pregnant. Are we planning your induction today? What are we doing?” I was like, “No, no, no. We’re just going to do a cervical check. I don’t want an induction.” So it’s 2:00 in the afternoon. I’m three days past my due date. My doctor comes in. She does the cervical check and I’m not dilated at all. So they can’t do the membrane sweep. At this point, it was almost again, a release like it was out of my hands. I felt conflicted about it. I wanted my body to do things naturally and on its own, but I was so worried about going past 41 weeks that we had decided to do a membrane sweep if it was possible, but because I wasn’t dilated at all, it wasn’t possible. It was just like, “Okay. It’s out of my hands. I’ve done everything I can. Whatever happens at this point happens.” We leave the doctor’s appointment and we go to the park with my son and my best friend and her kiddo, my sister, my husband, and we just spent the rest of the day really just enjoying the moment and getting to be outside and getting to be together. Between 5:00 and 6:00, I realized that I was getting a lot of Braxton Hicks. They were just still going and going. Usually, they taper off and die down. Around 7:00, I realized that they were still going. So I decided to start casually looking at my watch and seeing how far apart they are. They were about 5-7 minutes apart. After I realized that, I started timing them in between. They were about an hour, excuse me. They were about a minute each. So they were 5-7 minutes apart, a minute each, but they just felt like Braxton Hicks so I’m like, “Oh, my body is just doing its thing.” At about 10:00, it was still going. I stand up and my sister looks at me. My husband looks at me and I look down and my stomach has dropped. It is the lowest it has ever been because my son didn’t drop. We were like, “Whoa. That’s crazy.” I’m still thinking that this is just prodromal labor, Braxton Hicks. At about 10:00, I decided that I was going to go lay down. I lay down in bed and all of a sudden, they get so much stronger. I can’t sleep through them. I’m really uncomfortable. At midnight, I decided to draw a bath. I’m like, “If this is prodromal labor, a bath should help it stop so I can get some sleep tonight.” As I’m drawing my bath, it wakes up my husband and he comes in. He sits next to me and I try and convince him to go back to sleep. I’m like, “This is nothing. It’s just prodromal labor and if it’s not, then you should still get some sleep before anything happens.”He’s like, “No. I’m not leaving.” So he sat next to me and I have him text my doula and tell her that they are 5 minutes apart, about a minute each, but I am still not quite convinced that anything is happening. Probably within 15 minutes of being in the bath, my contractions go from 5-7 minutes down to 2 minutes apart, a minute each. I’m someone who always thought I would want this natural, beautiful water birth and I hated being in the water. I hated it. I wanted to move. I felt so trapped and I needed to be moving. Meagan: Isn’t that funny how that works? You have this whole vision. I always envisioned giving birth in the tub and I gave birth on the bathroom floor. Zoei: It is. No, I just was like, “I need to move. I can’t just sit in this water anymore.” My contractions within an hour went from 5 minutes apart down to 2 minutes apart, still a minute each, and it’s all in my back. It was just really strong. My doula messages me and she is like, “Your contractions are pretty close together. Are you ready for some more support?” I say yes, so she comes over. At this point, my husband and I are in the living room. I’m on the birth ball. I’m moving. I’m using hip support during each contraction. I go and I wake up my sister. I’m like, “Hey, I think I’m actually in labor and I just want you to know that you are going to be here alone with our son soon.” So she comes out into the living room also to be a big support. My sister is almost like my mom. She is 9 years older, so she was always really great about being there for whatever I needed as well. My doula gets there probably at about 1:30. She starts doing some rebozo on me and starts having my husband do some rebozo on me. They try and do some counterpressure and again, I hate it. I’m like, “Don’t touch me. I know you’re trying to help me. Don’t touch me.” At this point, they are still 2 minutes apart, a minute each and I’m getting really vocal. I didn’t feel the need to get vocal with my son at all, but this one, I understood what my midwife was asking me to do the first time. I couldn’t help it. They were these deep moans. I was getting really worried about waking up my son in the other room, so we decided to go to the hospital at 3:00 a.m. It’s a little over 12 hours since I had been at the doctor and I hadn’t been dilated at all. We get to the hospital. They check me in and I am maybe a centimeter dilated. I’m like, “Okay, well, almost exactly like what happened with my son, right?”Meagan: Yeah, but you were feeling further this time, right?Zoei: Yes, definitely. I could feel the changes in my body this time and I didn’t feel the changes at all with my son. So I was like, “Things are happening now. I understand now. I see what was missing the first time.”We go ahead and they decide to check me in because my contractions are still so close together. They are consistently 2 minutes apart. The nurses look at my doula and they were like, “Hey, has it been back labor the whole time?” She says, “Yes.” So again, she knew right away what was happening and I wasn’t sure, but my baby was OP. Her spine was to my spine. It was miserable. I had planned for unmedicated. I wanted to be able to move around. I wanted to be able to experience this birth, but more than anything, I wanted to be able to enjoy it. I told my husband, “I am not going to be able to enjoy this as long as I have this back labor. I need an epidural.” He was really supportive. He’s like, “I want to make sure that you actually want this because you’ve talked so much about not wanting an epidural.” I was like, “It’s so important for me to be able to look back and be excited about this birth and not look back and cringe about how much pain I was in the whole time.” It gets to be about 6:00 a.m. and I ask the nurse when I can have an epidural. They didn’t check me again, so as far as they know, I’m still at 1 centimeter. They were like, “We will order one for you right now.” They were like, “The only thing we ask is that while you can still be up and moving around, have your doula do some more rebozo on you to try and flip the baby around.” I go and I sit on the toilet backward. Christine starts doing some rebozo trying to help flip the baby. Baby is just not having it. By 6:30, I have the epidural. It starts working immediately and I can feel my legs which was fantastic. It just numbed the pain which was great, but I could still move around in the bed with no issues at all. At 7:00 a.m., it was a shift change and that is when I met my new doctor. I hadn’t had another cervical check since I had first been checked in and this doctor walks in at 7:30 and he introduces himself. He sits down, leans forward, and looks at me. At this point, I think he’s only read my chart. The first thing he says is, “Do you want more kids?”Meagan: What?Zoei: Yeah. I was like, “We talk about having a third sometimes,” and he’s just sitting there silent. I’m like, “Are you asking because of the C-section?” because he didn't say anything after that. He was like, “Yes I am.” I was like, “Okay, why are you asking that?” He was like, “Well, at this point, our fear is that the same exact thing is happening that happened with your first. You had such a large baby the first time and shoulder dystocia is such a tragic thing when it happens. With a VBAC, you can rupture and although it might not happen when it does, it is absolutely awful and tragic.” He’s really laying it on. Meagan: So lots of fear. Lots of fear was poured out onto you. You are in a very vulnerable state already. Zoei: Yes. Yes. I was like, “I understand. I have done the research, but I really am looking forward to doing this VBAC.” He was like, “Okay, but why? Why do you even want to have birth naturally?” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Zoei: Right? At this point, my doula has also left. After I got the epidural, she asked if it was okay if she went home to sleep. I was like, “Absolutely. Go for it.” She had her phone on loud, so at this point, it was the doctor, me, and my husband. I’m like, “I want a VBAC because I have a two-year-old at home that I need to be able to go home and play with. It’s really important to me because I wasn’t mentally present when my son was born. I just felt really out of it and I really want to be mentally present for this baby.”He’s like, “Okay, but I don’t even think that your body is going to be able to progress past what it already is. You haven’t done it before.” I was like, “Okay. I’m not concerned about what my body is able to do. If you would like to do a cervical check to see where I am, that is completely fine, but I am not worried about it.” He actually word-for-word says, “Okay. Well, I would like to see if your bony pelvis is even capable of birthing a child.” Meagan: Oh boy. And he has never touched you before? Or even seen you? Yeah.Zoei: No. First time meeting him. No. I have this huge blanket over me. He can’t even see my pelvis for starters. Meagan: He’s already diagnosing your pelvis as a bony pelvis. Zoei: Yes. Correct. Meagan: Okay. Zoei: He keeps trying to tell me about how he doesn’t think I’m going to progress at all. It goes on for about 20 minutes before he has even checked me still and it gets to the point where I tell him, “Can you please do the cervical check? If I’m not dilated past the 1, we can keep talking about what you are talking about, but unless I or baby is in danger, I am planning on this VBAC.” He lets me know right then that baby being in danger is really subjective to what the doctor views as danger. Meagan: Oh! Okay. Zoei: I just said, “Can we please do the cervical check?” We do the cervical check and lo and behold, I’m 4 centimeters. Meagan: Woohoo!Zoei: Yes. It was funny because he was like, “That’s interesting. When I started the cervical check, you were at a 1, but now you are at a 4. So he was saying that while he did it, I went from a 1 to a 4. I’m like, “I don’t even know if that’s possible, but whatever. You can see that my body is progressing.” Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: He gives the okay for me to continue. Or I guess he gives me his blessing to continue the VBAC because I was doing it one way or another. He leaves the room and my husband and I just sleep. We sleep until about noon which was when our doula came back. Around 2:00, the nurse comes in and asked if she could do a cervical check. I’m still only at a 4. Nothing has changed at all. But my contractions were still really consistently every 2 minutes apart because you could see it on the monitor. Baby’s heart rate was great. They weren’t worried. They just let me keep doing what my body wanted to. Oh, also, because I could move, every hour, I was changing positions with the peanut ball. I would be on my right side for an hour, then my left side for an hour, and I just kept going back and forth. So probably about 4:00, I decide that I want to see if gravity can help at all. My doula and my husband helped me get onto all fours on the bed and they start doing some rebozo work for me. She does it for a little bit, and then she shows my husband how to do it and he does it. I’m in that position for about an hour and then after that, we do the throne position for an hour. By then, I’m exhausted again. With an epidural, it’s really easy to forget that your body is running a marathon. So while you’re getting exhausted and you think that you’re just sitting there–Meagan: You’re not. Zoei: No. Your body is doing so much work. Meagan: Yep. Yep. Zoei: I’m exhausted and I decide to lie down for a little bit. The doctor comes in at about 6:00 and he checks me. I’m at a 7. After that, about every hour, the nurse would ask me if I wanted a cervical check. I kept declining because I could start to feel pressure in my pelvis and so I knew that we were getting closer, but I didn’t want to do a cervical check and have them see that I was at a 10 and try and get me to start pushing because I really learned a lot listening to your podcast that just because you’re at a 10 doesn’t mean that you’re ready to have the baby. I kept declining until I was feeling a lot of pressure between my bottom and my pelvis. I felt just a lot of pressure had built. At about 10:15, my nurse checks me and she says that I am at least at a 9, but she didn’t want to check further than that because my water was bulging. It hadn’t broken yet. I’m like, “Okay great. I’m going to go nap some more.” And then, I woke up at 11:15 to the doctor coming in. He has two other nurses with him. They walk in and the doctor wakes me up. He has me lay on my back and he says that we are about to get going. What I didn’t know at this point was that my daughter’s heart rate had been having these small drops. So at 11:15, they get everything all set up. It was funny because we had actually planned to have my husband catch the baby, so my doctor walks my husband through what that was going to look like. I’m on my back and he’s like, “With this next contraction, I want you to bear down.” I did and my water broke. The doctor, at this point, looks at me. It’s the same doctor as in the beginning and he says, “Okay. You can’t feel your contractions so I’m going to tell you when to push.” I let him know that I actually can feel my contractions so I will be pushing on my own. Meagan: I was going to say, did he ask?Zoei: No, he kept telling me what was happening with my body. He kept not asking me. Meagan: Oh man. Zoei: I was like, “I will be doing this, thank you.” He was like, “Well, you can try.” This man has the audacity to turn around and start talking to a nurse during my next three contractions. Each one, I’m pushing. I’m not making any sounds, but I’m pushing. Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: He turns back to me and he’s like, “Are you going to start pushing?” The nurse who was with me was like, “She’s been pushing each time.” He looks at me. Again, hasn’t even watched me through a contraction. He was like, “You are going to have to push a lot harder with each contraction if you want this baby out.” He continues with, “This baby is OP which means it’s going to be a lot harder and a lot more work. It’s going to be a lot more difficult. You’re going to be pushing for hours so you are going to need to be prepared for that.” Oh, I was just completely just tuning him out at this point. He’s not helping me. He’s not mentally encouraging me. He’s just telling me how hard it’s going to be over and over again. He finally watches me push on the next one and he’s like, “Oh, that wasn’t bad.” Thank you. I’m aware. I’m still on my back and it feels so uncomfortable. I know I have the epidural and I’m feeling all of the pressure, but I do not want to be on my back. I look at him and I’m like, “Hey. I would like to move on to all fours. Is that okay?” He stops and looks at me. He says, “Well, I guess you can, but you’re going to make it a lot harder for me and the nurse if you do that.” Meagan: Okay, well thank you for letting me know. Yeah. Sorry I am making it harder on you. Zoei: Yes. This is not your birth. This is my birth. Meagan: I’m pushing a baby out of my vagina right now. Zoei: Yep. So it’s 11:15 and he sends the two nurses that he brought in away. It’s me, my husband, my doula, the doctor, and the nurse that is assigned to me. I switch onto all fours and my baby’s heart rate evens out. He’s like, “Oh, it looks like the baby actually really likes that position.” So I’m pushing with each contraction, but again, I don’t feel this need to push. I’m almost getting frustrated that I’m pushing because I don’t want to be. Nothing in me is saying “push”. I know I’ve had the epidural and I know it can numb you, but at this point, it felt like my body had told me everything to do, so I don’t know why I wasn’t listening to it. I decided to start listening to my body instead of the doctors and I stop pushing. I’m on all fours and I just start swaying my hips back and forth. I do that for about three contractions and the nurse really kindly and really gently is like, “Hey, you’re having a contraction.” I was like, “I know. I’m taking a break.”At midnight, the doctor walks over to the nurse, doesn’t look at me, doesn’t say anything and he says to the nurse, “Baby is still OP. This is going to take a while. I’m going to go do other things,” and he walks out. My first thought is, “Why am I pushing if he doesn’t even think I’m going to have this baby anytime soon?”I turn and I say that to the nurse. She’s like, “Well, it can just take a lot of time.” I was like, “I don’t think I should be pushing, so I would like to just labor longer.” The nurse and my doula start talking about the best position to get me in to sit there and labor more. I’m still on all fours and I’m swaying my hips. I keep going into the resting child position and I can’t stop moving. I feel so much pressure. I don’t feel the need to push, but I can’t stop moving. It feels almost like this tingling is happening. At 12:08, I go into the resting child position and I feel my daughter flip and go directly into my pelvis. Immediately, I knew I needed to push. Meagan: Whoa, that’s amazing. Zoei: Yes, it was 8 minutes after the doctor left the room. She dropped so far down that I actually reached my hand down to see if I could feel her head because it was just so quick and sudden. I came back up and all I had was just some blood on my hand, but I was like, “It’s about to happen.” I’m on all fours and all of a sudden, I start pooping. The nurse goes to clean me up and she sees the head start coming out. She runs over and presses a button and she calls anyone that is in the hallway. She runs back up to me and she is like, “You need to slow down.” The only thought I had was, “I’m not slowing down for anyone.” My doctor chose to leave. I am doing this. I go and it was absolutely amazing because I felt everything. It felt so natural and so right. Within two or three pushes, she was completely out. A nurse had run in and caught her. She was, as they put it, a little floppy when she was born, so they had to cut the umbilical cord pretty quick and bring her over to their little warming area and help her out for a minute. She didn’t get immediately placed on my chest or anything, but that was totally fine. I was just so excited and so proud that I had done it. The doctor walks in five minutes later. And he’s just like, “Wow, that happened really fast.” I had a second-degree tear. Again, you would think at this point that he would start asking me questions, but he was like, “You can’t feel anything so I’m going to start stitching you.”I tell him again, “I can feel everything.” So he gives me a little bit of numbing but not enough to numb everything. But he finishes stitching me up. One of my really big fears was actually that I would feel an immediate love and connection to this baby when I didn’t with my first. I was really worried about the guilt that would come with that. But for me, it was almost cool because I didn’t feel that immediate love for this baby either. Not in a bad way, I felt so protective and I knew that she was mine, but you give birth to a little stranger, you know? That’s not wrong. There’s no issue with that because I still knew that I would do anything for her, super protective, but just like with my son, it just took a little bit for those love hormones to really hit me hard. That was my VBAC. It was amazing and I got to come home. I got to play with my son and I got to hold him. It was just exactly what I wanted it to be. Meagan: I love that. I love that. I hate when providers doubt, but I love when people prove providers wrong. It’s so bad. Zoei: It was my favorite part. I’m not going to lie to you. Meagan: You know, that was one of the things right after I had my baby. I was like, “Yeah. I did that.” I said his name. I was like, “Yep. I did that.” In fact, I actually said, “Screw you.” Zoei: It was so funny. My doula took notes. Yes, exactly. My doula took notes through the entire birthing process to be able to give to me later and when the doctor left the room, she actually wrote a specific note saying, “So glad he left. He was not bringing any good energy.” And then after I gave birth to my daughter, she wrote a note saying, “Gave birth. Doing amazing. Felt good to just almost give a giant ‘screw you’ to the doctor.”Meagan: I know and I don’t want to feel that way. I really don’t, but man. Zoei: But it feels kinda good. Meagan: It does feel good and there was no reason to doubt when nothing was telling anybody anything but positive. Zoei: Yes, exactly.Meagan: He brought this negative feeling into this space that was undesired and placed fear, and doubt. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. You had started with a shift change and here you meet your new doctor who is already telling you that your pelvis is probably bony and things like that. I would say, what would be one of your tips to our listeners because unfortunately, this happens all of the time when we are with our supportive provider, yet that supportive provider is unable to specialize. I call it “specialize” meaning to only see and catch your baby. They are in shifts, which, I understand why these providers out there work shifts. It’s hard work. They are long shifts. They get tired. They get burned out. We are grateful for all of the providers out there. But what tips would you personally give to anyone that one, maybe going into it with an unsupportive provider because they are unable to find a supportive provider in their area, and two, dealing with that shift and that doubt and that fear that was placed? Zoei: I think that the biggest thing to remember is that you and the doctor have the same exact goal. You both want a healthy baby and a healthy mom. But you guys might have two different routes on how to get there. That doesn’t mean that either is wrong, but I think that just knowing that you have the final say is. It’s not up to the doctor. Really, anything that they are saying is a suggestion. It’s up to you. It’s your body. It’s your baby and it’s your birth. They’re not going to look back on your birth and be like, “Oh wow, such a great job.” If it’s a C-section, they might look back and be like, “Wow, that was some great stitch work,” right? If it’s vaginal, “Wow, that went really smoothly,” but it’s your birth. You have to live with it. Meagan: Mmhmm. I love that. Zoei: Yes. You’re not going to forget it. You’re going to look back on it. It’s your birth story, not their birth story. Meagan: Yeah, and that is something even when I was debating on changing providers. In the end, I loved that provider, but in the end, this is an experience that I am going to live with for the rest of my life, that I am going to hold onto. Although, I agree. Our providers are there to have a safe mom and a safe baby with everyone healthy and happy. That is true. However, they are not going to live with this experience for the rest of their life more than likely. Some providers may hold onto it. I’m sure they have births that they hold onto, but yeah. It’s more unlikely that they are going to remember your birth forever. Zoei: People aren’t going to go up to them and be like, “Hey, how was that birth today?” like how people will go up to you, “How was the birth?”Meagan: Right. Or, “Do you remember that birth four years ago?” And they would be like, “Uhh, kinda.”Zoei: “Which one? I had five that day.” Meagan: Exactly. So it’s your birth. It’s your baby. It’s your experience and it’s okay for you to stand up. We do have a blog on VBAC-friendly care providers and all of the different types of providers because we have got midwives. We have family doctors. We have OBGYNs. We have MFMs which are maternal-fetal medicine doctors. We have a love of people that can help with VBAC. It’s just finding the right provider for you. This blog talks all about that. How to find out whether they are truly supportive or not, questions, we have some questions in there. If you are looking to start interviewing VBAC providers, check out our blog at thevbaclink.com/blog. It’s all about finding a supportive provider. We’ve got lots of questions in there that you can take with you while you are interviewing providers. Even if you’re not interviewing providers, feel free to take the questions with you to your prenatals. They always say, “Do you have any questions?” Well, usually, in prenatal visits, and a lot of the times, we don’t really have any questions or we don’t really know what questions to ask. But a lot of these questions are really great to do a little check-in and see if your provider is truly supportive of your desires of the way you want to birth. Sometimes that’s in regards to a VBAC and sometimes that’s maybe through your research and you are learning that you are not comfortable or you are not desiring a VBAC. Talk about a CBAC or talk about having a scheduled Cesarean. Ask those questions as well. We also have a blog on CBAC if you are not wanting to VBAC and how to do a family-centered Cesarean as well. We will provide those in the show notes for you and definitely suggest taking these with you along with your provider because it can help. And if you’re like Zoei and you run into a situation where a nonsupportive provider comes in, like she said, stand your ground. This is your birth. It’s okay to be strong. It’s okay to advocate for yourself. So I’m proud of you. So happy for you. Huge congrats and thank you so much for being with us today. Zoei: Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here and just have one more thing to add. If any doctor is trying to use fear tactics, the last thing you want to do is make a decision out of fear. Meagan: Yes.Zoei: That is not going to give you the results that you want.Meagan: Yes. Zoei: Do what your heart is telling you but don’t do it because you are afraid.Meagan: Yeah. Earlier before we started talking, you were talking about, “Don’t make a decision that is fueled by fear.” That can happen. Sometimes, when you’ve got scary things coming in and being said, you feel like you have to make a quick decision. Zoei: Mhmm. Meagan: Because those scary things seem urgent. Sometimes it might be. Sometimes it’s like, “We have to go down for a C-section,” and you have to make those decisions really quickly, but a lot of the time, you can stop. Wait. Discuss. Look at the pros, the cons, and the alternatives, and really go through things. Do not make a decision that is fueled by fear, but fueled by education, peace, knowledge, and following your intuition. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands