Episode 318 BadassMotherBirther + How to Make Change

“Let’s change the narrative.” From how to be an active participate in your care to how to help get your partner on board with your birth goals, Flor Cruz and Meagan talk about it all. Flor Cruz is the founder of BadassMotherBirther and a long-time friend of The VBAC Link. A two-time VBAC mom herself, Flor is passionate about equipping all moms with the education they need to feel empowered in their birth space. Meagan and Flor share the importance of paying attention to red flags and how to recognize them even within your body. They talk about how feeling safe in your birth environment and being able to acclimate can literally change your birth outcome. These two ladies have been where you are. They know how overwhelming it can be trying to prepare for an empowering and healing birth after tough ones. But Women of Strength, you are not alone. Together, we truly can make birth after Cesarean better. Flor’s WebsiteNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. Today’s episode is with one of my absolute favorite people. Even though I actually haven’t met her personally, I’ve been following her forever and we’ve been doing things and connecting back and forth for years. I am just so stinking excited to have the one and only Flor Cruz from BadassMotherBirther on the show today. We’re going to get into the nitty gritty and really talk about some feelings so be prepared for that. If you don’t know who Flor Cruz is yet, I highly suggest checking out BadassMotherBirther. She is the creator of BadassMotherBirther. She is a doula, a birth and human rights advocate, a childbirth educator, and also a mom of 5 and two-time VBACer. You guys, I’m so stinking excited to have her on the show. We do have a Review of the Week and then we are going to jump right into our episode. Today’s review is by mamaofboys0326. It says, “The Best Podcast About Birth and VBACs”. It says, “I had my first baby after a very unexpected C-section. I had done everything right to try and have a natural birth and things did not go as planned. When I got pregnant again only 6 months after him, I knew I wanted a VBAC but didn’t know where to go for information and support. This podcast was exactly what I needed. The birth stories and education, information, and inspiration that is provided is amazing. It helped me know the facts about VBAC and be inspired to be a Woman of Strength. I am here to say I just had a successful VBAC and I am so thankful for the inspiration that this podcast has provided for me through the whole journey.”Oh my goodness. Mamaofboys0326, thank you so much for your review and congratulations on your VBAC. We love you. All right, let’s get into today’s show.Meagan: Okay, so we’re just going to dive right in because the conversation we were having before we started pressing record was exactly what I feel like I want to talk about today and everybody, right before we were pushing record, we are going to talk about doulas. We are birth workers. We are VBAC moms. We see a lot of stuff and we’ve also been through a lot of stuff so we understand you. We get you. We hear you. We see you. We see it every day in all of the VBAC communities even not in the VBAC communities. I’m seeing so much of the same questions and comments and things. I just wanted to talk a lot about some of those things. One of them was a doula and how we can’t expect them to save us as VBAC birthers, right? I was telling her about a situation with a client who unfortunately came with a lot of question and doubt in what she was being told, but then in the end, the decision that was made which is not my decision to make or judge or anything, but it was a decision that was made that unfortunately turned into the cascade that a lot of us see. The hardest part is that person was pretty upset with us. That was hard. That was hard for me so what she posted a post. I think it was actually this month maybe. I think it was this month and she just said, “The birth plan will not save you. The doula will not save you,” because we hear a lot of people say, “I hired the doula. I did the birth plan. I did this. I did that and it still didn’t work out in the way.” I love what you were just saying about insurance. Can you tell them about that? Flor: Yeah, so I think when a lot of people hire doulas and they take the classes and they do the things and the birth plan, a lot of those things you have to utilize them well. Okay? We are tools. Doulas themselves are interventions. We are interventions for the system. We are an intervention for you, right? Interventions can also create good outcomes. You can get insurance for your vehicle, but if you are not following the rules of the road and you are not utilizing your car the way you are supposed to, then the insurance is going to be garbage. It’s really not going to mean anything. This is the part that people need to realize when they are hiring outside people to come in and help them. There is a certain layer of work that you need to be doing that your doulas cannot do for you. I can’t make you not be scared. I can’t make you participate in your care. I can’t make you make informed decisions. I can’t make you have conversations with your provider and ask them to do their due diligence with you. We can’t force those things. We can suggest things and we can give you information, but at the end of the day, those decisions are your own and when you make those decisions, they come with benefits and risks. The doulas don’t have the magic wand to fix those consequences of certain decisions. We just don’t. I think people have that expectation that the doula is going to come in with this cape and everything is going to be good no matter what decisions are made. That’s just not how it goes. Then there are people who really do the work. They release the fears. They see the chiropractor. They hire the best provider that they can. They are doing all of the things. They are participating in their care. They are asking the questions. They are doing all of those things. They are staying home as long as they can and then sometimes they still have a C-section. Right? Meagan: Mhmm. It’s frustrating. Flor: It’s frustrating but it’s also a reality of birth that some people just do need C-sections. Sometimes you just don’t know why. You don’t know why. Sometimes we walk away going, “Fuck. I don’t know what the hell happened.” Everything was aligned so great, but we still had a C-section and sometimes it’s just a matter of the mammal of their home. I know that is a really hard pill to swallow for a lot of people, but we need to understand that mammals are not inherently built to leave their homes in the middle of labor to go give birth somewhere else in a building with strangers and lights and sounds. Sometimes no matter what you have done, the mammal will not give birth in that environment. Meagan: Mhmm. Flor: It’s not going to give birth within the standard practice that are within those systems. They want to see the baby out within a certain timeframe. There is a lot that is happening. Meagan: Yeah, a lot. We’ve talked about this on the podcast before. When we choose to birth in the hospital which is fine, there is this sense of acclimation that has to happen and sometimes, we don’t acclimate properly. It’s so weird that sometimes I think about the situation too like when I remodeled my house and my wood flooring had to acclimate well and there was a certain part, there was an actual box. For some reason, it was something weird and it didn’t acclimate and it rejected the space. It didn’t lay correctly. It didn’t work. Sometimes our bodies go in and we don’t know why. Sometimes we are tense or whatever and we don’t acclimate well or we finally start to acclimate but all of these interventions start to come in and these other people so then our body freaks out again and then it’s just a mess. It’s just a mess. We can do our best as doulas or birth workers to encourage and motivate, but we really cannot be the deciding factor of you getting induced or not induced or you doing an IUPC or not doing that IUPC. We can’t be that deciding factor so if you’re listening and you haven’t hired a doula or you have a doula, just know that we absolutely want to be there and we love you and we want to help you have a better outcome. We really, really do, wholeheartedly. There have been births where I have walked away bawling actually because I was like, What the hell happened? Then I start questioning what I have done or what I could have done better. That’s so hard and that’s a whole other conversation for birth workers processing that. In the end, we have to make sure as VBAC parents that we really are willing to put all the work in and accept what’s going on and take charge of what’s going on. Flor: Mhmm, mhmm. Yeah and also VBAC parents are probably more showing up with the extra layer of fear. We’re showing up with so much fear and different layers than someone who hasn’t gone through something that was potentially traumatic or a past experience to that degree so there is more, right? This isn’t to shit on hospital births. It’s not about that because I’ve also seen plenty of home births go way south. It’s not about that. It’s about so many things that are not being unraveled. Too many people are showing up to the spaces that don’t know what they are doing that are not practicing evidence-based care that are not upholding autonomy, that are not being compassionate, that are not being vulnerable with someone, that are not staying in the moment with the birth, that are doing everything in a medically defensive manner. Everything is judged by risk and that’s how we are going to move forward. We see midwives do that all of the time. It’s not just the hospitals, right? It’s not always just leaving your home. Someone coming into your home with all of their fucking medical equipment and assistance and charts and cell phones and iPads. That’s all disturbing too. It’s not just the hospitals. There’s so much shit that needs to be unraveled here but at the end of it, one person, your doula, cannot save you from all of that. They cannot. They can make some outcomes better. Yes, the research shows us that.But if you think we are going to show up and 100% save you from so many things, that’s just not the reality. It’s not. Meagan: Yeah, like you said earlier, it can be a hard pill to swallow. Even as a VBAC mom myself, I put a lot of faith and I put my doulas and my midwife on this totem pole over here that was like, “I’ve got this because they’ve got me.” That wasn’t necessarily the right attitude. It wasn’t the right way to enter my birth space. I think I had to process that for a really long time in my 42-hour-long labor and accept that and realize, this is me. This is me. We have to take charge of our birth. But what I think as a doula, one of my biggest messages is that we want to see change. We want to see change in this birth world. There are a lot of things to unravel and change and just fix in this birth world but we are not seeing them happen. So why are we not seeing them happen? Because we are not making the change. That sounds like a lot of pressure on us as birthers, but it is. It is up to us to make the change and until we get out of the status quo and the normal path of what the system wants no matter home birth or not, we’re not going to see change. We have to educate ourselves. Flor: Yes. This isn’t a thing to shame parents to tell them they are not doing enough or they are not making good decisions. Nobody should ever have to step into figuring out how they are going to birth their baby with having to figure out who is the best provider. You should be able to show up anywhere and be able to have 100% support. Already, that’s the problem. We’re showing up to these spaces and not getting what we need. Also, what people need to realize is that the things we have now in the birth space like pushing in the positions that you want, talking about physiological birth, and skin-to-skin contact. Those are the things that were stripped from us through the industrialized medical system and we as the people fought for those things back. Meagan: And still have to. Flor: And still have to. Those are not things that, Oh, it’s great. They’re coming along and giving us all of these things. Everything we have now, you guys, we had to fight back for. It’s going to be the same concepts when you are looking to have a VBAC. It’s going to be the same concept. You have to participate in your care and I get it. Culture grooms us to just listen to our doctors. That’s where the seed is in our foundation. You just listen to the doctor. You are not smarter than them. You don’t have a degree. They are the professional and if you don’t listen, you don’t love your baby enough. Meagan: Yeah, exactly. You don’t love your baby enough or you are putting yourself and your baby at risk by making these choices when intuitively, for years, we were birthing off of intuition. We were truly, I believe, birthing from our intuition many, many, many, years ago and we have lost it. It’s like someone has stripped our ability to tune into that intuition because like she said, we are so groomed to trust this other area. We lose our intuition but it’s so much there. You have it. You have it in your heart and your soul. Your intuition exists. You just have to listen. Sometimes that means going into a quiet place and tuning into what your heart is saying versus what the outside world is saying and burdening in fear. I think that is the biggest part in trying to figure out intuition is, Is this fear or is this my heart saying this? What is right? A lot of people will steer away from home birth when their heart is like, This is where I need to be. My heart is in my home. But for some reason, someone said something so their fear creeps in and now they confuse that with their intuition. Flor: Absolutely. What’s the easiest way to get someone to comply? To tell them that they are endangering their baby. That is the quickest and easiest way to get anybody to comply is to give them the threat of their baby dying. Meagan: That’s what my second provider told my husband. My second provider used my husband. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great guy. It was a really super dumb thing that he did but he was really smart. He used my husband against me because that’s all I had was my husband with my second, my VBAC attempt, my TOLAC or my CBAC. Yeah. He used him against me. He was like, “Listen. Your wife is not being smart right now. This is not okay. Your baby is at risk.” So what did my husband do? Freak the hell out. “We need to go down and do a C-section. We need to.”But then I didn’t have anybody with me. I had everyone against me because that fear, that one comment of, “This isn’t good for your baby,” that was it. That was it. That was all that needed to be said. Flor: That’s generally all it really takes. But I think if we get to that point with our providers, then the next step needs to be one, stay calm. You need to stay calm. You need to not make that fear a reality in your brain. Your provider has the responsibility to show you the burden of proof. Meagan: That’s a powerful message right there. Flor: That’s your provider’s responsibility right there. They are not supposed to be talking to you without giving you actual, real numbers. By the way, that’s what you need to be asking providers when they’re saying some shit that is real left field is, “Can you show me the burden of proof? Can you show me the real numbers and evidence to this? That’s what I’m looking for.”When we walk into these spaces and we want to say, “I trust my providers,” I think that that’s great that you trust your provider, but that doesn’t mean that you fail to participate in your care, that you fail to ask the questions, that you fail to make informed decisions, that you fail to say, “Let me see the numbers on that. You’re telling me that my rupture rate is 15%. Can you please show me that on paper? And can you please show me out of that 15% rate of rupture how much of that is actually catastrophic which means that me or my baby will die from that?” They will not be able to produce any of those papers because it’s not real. It’s not real. I always tell people this. Put the same energy into finding out who your partner’s exes are. You’re figuring out their Facebook. You’re looking at their pictures. You found their cousins. You found all this information about your partner’s exes. Put that same energy into your providers. Put that same energy into their care. Right? Meagan: You deserve it. Flor: You deserve it. You deserve to have someone on your team who is knowledgeable, isn’t going to lie to you, and is continuing to learn and do the research because that is also another big fault of providers is they are not keeping up with the research. They are still doing the same shit they were doing 20 years ago. Meagan: You know, I even think that sometimes when providers see research, it’s there. They are given it. It’s like, “Well, that’s not how it really is,” because that’s not how they are practicing. So it’s not like, “Wow, I need to make some adjustments in my care.” They just keep going so that’s why we have this crazy lack of change. That’s why some countries are 10 years ahead of us because we for some reason aren’t willing to make change when the facts are provided. Flor: Right. I think especially in the United States, we really glorify licenses and degrees. We glorify people who have this sense of authority over us. It makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside, but why is that? Why is it that we don’t feel smart enough to be the head of our own care? Why? Meagan: Why do you think? Flor: It shouldn’t be that way. Meagan: No. No. It shouldn’t, but it is so easily that way. We just don’t. We just don’t. Flor: We just don’t and I know sometimes it’s a cultural difference. Both of my parents are immigrants from Nicaragua so for them to come to the United States and have access to healthcare and have access to get seen by a doctor and to get antibiotics and get help and get x-rays, that’s amazing to people who come from a country where they don’t have access to stuff like that. I was raised with, “This is amazing. We have doctors here. You should just do what they are telling you because we are just so grateful to have access to this care,” that we are just blindly following what they are saying. I’m the first person in the family to question, “Well, what if this person is wrong?” Meagan: You’re the first person in your family? Flor: What if this person is wrong? I’m the first person to really fully participate in my healthcare. That is not in the norm in my family because of the culture that we are immigrants so there is also that layer of where our family’s are from and is this new to us? Is having access to healthcare new to your generation in your family? Because that’s a whole other layer that you’ve got to uncover now too. Meagan: Yeah, I actually didn’t even think of that. Flor: Yes. Absolutely. Meagan: Wow, yeah. Flor: We’re getting ready to have these babies so it’s like, you’re going to have this brand new little human that you are now going to have to advocate for. Getting on that wheel of participating and advocating prenatally during your pregnancy, your labor, your postpartum, that’s all gearing up for you to get ready to advocate for a new human for the rest of your life. If you think you’re not going to end up in an ER at some point in time with that child and you’re going to have to advocate, you are dead-ass wrong. At some point, you will end up in the ER and have to really ask the questions and not just hand your child over and just do whatever you want type situation. We have to realize that starts now. Meagan: With us being able to advocate and take charge of our own care. You know, I know. I definitely have had the personality in the past and it’s still in me. It’s still very much in me where I’m like, oh I’m a people pleaser. I’m like, “Sure. Okay fine. It’s probably not that big of a deal. Obviously you seem very passionate about that so we will just go along with that.” We’re going to say breaking water for instance. A provider comes in and says they want to break your water and you’re like, “I didn’t want that. I know I didn’t want that. That was something I knew I didn’t want. It’s on my birth plan. I didn’t want to break my water, but this provider is saying it. They seem really passionate about it, so I guess I will just back down on that and let it go even though I’m really passionate about it. Sure, go ahead. Break my water.” Flor: Yes. Meagan: Right? But why? Why are we allowing that if it’s something that we really, really, really, really don’t want, why do we just back down so easily? Flor: There are a few things that are going on here and I think for women in particular, we are raised to people please. We are raised to take care of everybody’s needs around us but women in general to people please. Women are raised to not ruffle anybody’s feathers, not make anybody upset, give people what they want, and that’s our only job so when someone comes into the room and says they need you to x, y, and z, our brains are calculating that as there is a need that has to be fulfilled and I have to fulfill that. But the other thing that is happening here too is that we do have mammalian mechanisms in place to protect us and to help us survive within the wild. So if we have someone coming in who is looking like they are this sense of authority who could potentially feel like a source of threat like a predator to us, the mammal will give in to the predator’s demands to avoid further harm. There are layers of mammal instinct that are happening here as well. It’s happening on a subconscious level. So this is where a doula will help. The doula is the person who is outside of that who can step in to say, “Hey, I understand that this wasn’t part of your plan. Is there any medical reason why this should be happening? Just to speed up the labor isn’t a medical reason so I just want to remind you that your birth plan is pretty ironclad so if this is not something that you want to do, I fully support you doing that.” Right? Then we give the benefits, the risks, the information, and then let the parent decide what they want to do. But ultimately, this is a lot of the time what ends up happening. The parent does what the provider says. Meagan: Yeah.Flor: The doula is not going to save you from that. Meagan: No. Flor: We can’t. Meagan: It’s hard, you guys. Women of Strength, we want to protect you. We want to help you get your birth plan and have that amazing experience that you do deserve and that you have worked hard for, but like she said, we can give you everything as doulas, but then it really is up to you or us as parents to make that ultimate decision and if we do that and just back down because we want to meet that person’s need, we then have to deal with what happens after that. We have to accept that. I don’t like the work deal. We are going to accept that because that was the choice we made. Flor: Yes. It’s the choice that we are doing. Meagan: If we are going to go into a store and steal something, we have to understand that there are repercussions from stealing that item. Whether or not you get caught and you are just feeling guilt or whatever, there are going to be feelings so if we do something just because someone wants us to, then we sit down and we’re like, Oh crap. Or if it goes awry, then there’s no one else to blame and that’s the hardest part as a VBAC parent and a VBAC doula from those two standpoints. It’s a hard thing. Flor: It’s a really hard thing. As much as we’re asking our providers to give us that information and to give us the burden of proof and ask them, “Why are you suggesting this intervention?” It’s also important that you have that conversation with yourself. Why am I not choosing to do this or to do this? You also need to ask yourself that because if you are saying yes or no to something, are we saying yes or no out of fear? The thing I see a lot of the time too is that people are completely fucking exhausted. The system has completely dragged them through hell and back just to get to that moment and people are fucking tired. Meagan: Yes. All people, but especially with VBAC. There is this extra layer of pressure to have our baby by certain dates and you have to be a certain centimeter or they won’t induce. Or guess what? If you do hit this date, I won’t even induce you. You have to have a C-section so we have all of this extra pressure and stress and angst. We’re going out and we’re trying to self-induce and we’re trying to do all of these things. We are so stressed that we are not even able to get our head into a space of relaxing, calm, and willing to hear what our true intuition says because we are so wound up. Flor: We see it all the time in these VBAC groups. I stay in those VBAC groups heavily because I’ll tell you what, providers act so fucking wild when nobody’s around. When they think nobody’s around to watch them, the shit that they say and do, they act so differently then these people come to these Facebook groups and tell us how their prenatal visit went and I’m fucking blown away by the things that they are saying and the things that they are doing and the things that are happening. And also really sad that people don’t have the courage to stand up to their providers and to ask the questions and participate in their care. It’s really sad to see that this is the place that we are at. I’m always, always seeing, “I have to be in labor by 39 weeks” or “I have to have an induction or I have to have a C-section”. That’s the thing I see all the time. All the time. Meagan: You don’t have to do anything. Or I see the “Let me”. “They will let me. They will let me.” Women of Strength, if you are this person and you’re like, Oh crap. Yep. That’s me. That’s me saying that. Yep. My provider said they would let me, let’s make a change. Let’s make a change together. We have to do this as a community together and we deserve it as individuals to take better charge of our care and of our outcomes. Flor: Yeah, this is what this conversation is about. It’s about trying to get to a place where we are more participating in our care and getting that better type of care and just asking the simple questions. And even asking for space. If you are just feeling really overwhelmed in the moment and you are feeling like you are about to comply simply out of fear or being stressed, that is the perfect time to say, “I need time to think about this.” Meagan: Yep and your doula can be there for you. If you have a doula, they can be there for you to help hold that space and talk about those things and navigate through what is really being felt and thought in your head. Right? Flor: Absolutely. Meagan: There are so many times and I never want to shame providers or shame anyone. That’s not my goal ever in life. I don’t like to shame, but at the same time, it drives me nuts when I see a provider come in and they say– it’s like they are placing these seeds and then they are watering it with MiracleGro so it grows really thick and hard and then they are coming back in and they are dousing it with MiracleGro again. They come in and say weird things about breaking your water or whatever. You’re like, “Maybe. I’ll think about it.” You’re like, “Yeah. I said no. I pushed it off and put it aside. We’re not going to do it right now.” But then they come back in an hour later and are like, “Well, we really want to break your water.” Or now it’s the nurse, “Well, the doctor really wants to come in and break your water.” Here’s that second pour of MiracleGro so it’s growing thicker and harder to resist that root and that seed so you’re like, “Oh, no. I still think I want to wait. I really still think I want to wait.” But then the third time they come in and they are like, “Okay, we really think it’s best to break your water. You’re still hanging out around 6 centimeters. It’s probably going to help speed up your labor and get this baby out. You don’t want to do this forever. You’re going to tire out your uterus.” Then they douse it again and you’re like, “Fine. Sounds good.” We can’t say no three times, but you can. You can. If that still doesn’t feel right that third time, you can still say no. So I think here we are talking about all of the situations but how do we find that confidence? How do you think that we find this confidence to hold our rod and push through and not let it crack? Flor: Mhmm. For once, that starts prenatally. You cannot figure out who the fuck your provider is on the day you give birth. Meagan: You really can’t. Flor: You need to participate prenatally. Even just any single little prenatal test. “Can you explain to me why you are suggesting this? What are the benefits? What are the risks? Can you show me the evidence on this?” Any little thing. I don’t care if it is a urine exam. Your provider needs to see you participating all the way through and through so they know what to expect from you and what type of client you are actually going to be. That also gives you a good sense of, is this person willing for me to participate? Meagan: Yeah. Flor: Because you’re either going to get a provider who goes, “I love that you’re asking all of these questions and you’re participating in your care and you’re gaining knowledge. I love this.” A good provider will understand that that limits their liability if you are knowledgeable. The provider who does not like you asking questions is already a red flag. Meagan: Huge red flag. Flor: Huge. There are lots of times where you will find out who someone is very early on if you start participating there. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Flor: Then once we move to the actual labor, there is a decreased chance of you getting someone who you don’t want at your birth. Now, if it keeps getting pressed of this issue of we need to intervene. We need to intervene. We need to intervene and at some point if you’ve had enough, you say, “Hey, can you put it in my medical chart that I have at multiple occasions made the decision to refuse this intervention and you are continuing to come in here and coerce me? Can you please write that on my medical chart?” Meagan: Yeah, what do you think they’re going to do? Flor: They’re not going to want to. As much as they use that medical chart for their own liability and their own benefit, you also need to be using that as your own tool. Meagan: Yeah. Flor: Hey, I don’t want to discuss this again. Can you please write it in my chart that I’m not willing to discuss this any further? If you have anybody on your team who is just not listening, get rid of them. Why are we so scared to tell someone, “Hey, can you bring me another nurse who is on the staff please?” Meagan: Yeah. We are so vulnerable when we are in labor that we can’t seem to find this space of advocating for ourselves to that extent of, Okay, every time this nurse comes in, my blood pressure goes through the roof. I’m clearly feeling a fight-or-flight experience. This is not going to help me or my labor or my baby and definitely not going to help me leave this experience feeling joyful or will cherish for the rest of my life. So if that person is in your space making you feel those things and your body is responding that way– because let me tell you. Our body is a huge factor in what happens and it’s a response. We need to listen to it. Flor: It’s so smart. Meagan: It is so smart. Flor: So smart. Meagan: If you get the chills every time someone comes in or you can feel your heart race every time someone comes in, that is a flag that someone shouldn’t be in your space. That is okay. It is okay. We talked about this with Dr. Fox too with providers. No provider wants to be in a battle either. So if they are not going to be in that space of support and willingness to meet you and let you be a real– and “let” like not fight you against being an advocate for your own birth and being a participant in your own experience, that’s not the right provider. And guess what? They probably don’t want you as a patient either. And that’s okay to say, “You know what? Thank you so much for all you have done and where you have brought me today. I’m going to discontinue care.” Or you can just leave and transfer your records. You do not have to stay or you can say to that nurse or to another nurse or whatever, “I would like to request a new person.” Flor: Yeah. Meagan: Please do not return to my room. We had this a long time ago. I think it was even before COVID, probably in 2018. We had a preeclamptic mom who was already really struggling with blood pressure. She was on magnesium. She felt like garbage. It was her fourth or fifth baby. I can’t remember. It was a very stressful time. She was being induced and that was not what she wanted. She did have this nurse who came in. I’ll tell you, she made my skin crawl. Everything, just the way she walked in. She didn’t have to say a word and you could just feel that negative energy from her body. When she would speak to her and when she was touching her and maneuvering, it was just very aggressive and it was just ick. A lot of ick. I watched her blood pressure. I physically watched her blood pressure because she had to be on blood pressure the whole time. They were taking it every 15 minutes and I watched her vitals go up and then they would still go down and be high but they were clearly down. I started noticing that and I talked to her husband and I said, “Have you noticed this?” He’s like, “Yeah.” I’ve noticed everything about her. She gets anxious. I was like, “Yeah.” We went over and we talked to her and she was like, “I hate her.” She’s like, “I do not want her.” I said, “Then let’s get rid of her. That’s okay.” She said, “Wait, wait, wait. We can do that?” I said, “Yeah.” I went out to the desk and I just said, “Hey, is there any way we can get another nurse to come in here and chat?” She was like, “Yeah,” so she sent another nurse in and the patient was like, “I would really like to request a different nurse. I’m feeling really anxious when this nurse is in here. This is not what I’m needing. This is not the experience I want.” And they were like, “No problem.” We never saw her again, never. I didn’t even see her out in the hall. Never. Her birth experience dramatically changed in a positive way in a really crappy situation that she didn’t want, but it was a dramatic change and she was so happy. So happy. Flor: Yes. The environment and the vibes in there have to be immaculate. I think that’s a part that people don’t understand is if you’re also having to fight through and through and through throughout the whole labor, I wouldn’t expect a baby to want to be born into that environment. You cannot keep thinking of your body as this robot and as this mechanical thing. It is connected to your brain, to your emotion, to the environment, to your partner, the support system, and everything that is happening within the room. Our bodies are not going to release these tiny, little, precious, vulnerable mammals into the wild when the body feels that there are too many predators around and the environment is not safe. I see what happens here sometimes is that someone is fighting a lot throughout the whole labor and then they end up in a C-section and they go, “I just should have had the C-section to begin with because clearly my body doesn’t work.” It’s like, well no. You weren’t even given a fair shot at having a VBAC would be having support through and through. That would be a fair shot, but when you are having someone who is putting you in fight or flight, adrenaline overload, cortisol overload, your pelvic floor is going to tighten up. It is going to go woooop. Meagan: Hold that baby in. Flor: The baby is not going to have the room to navigate, to rotate, to descend. Your body is so smart. I don’t think people realize that your body is so smart and intelligent and works so well that it will hold your baby in when your body feels it is not a safe environment to be born. It’s not a failure. It’s a testament to how well your body actually works. Right? Meagan: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and the medical system really treats us in a way that we failed. Our body failed. Whatever. That’s just not the case. It’s not the case. It’s that our body was brilliant and was responding to a really not awesome experience. Flor: Absolutely. Meagan: It is up to us to continue to advocate so keep doing that, Women of Strength. Advocate for yourself. Push through. Listen. Read the room too. Read your body. If you are feeling anxious, make change. That is where it is up to us to– I hate the word, but at the same time, we can’t fail ourselves by not doing anything. If we do nothing, we are failing ourselves. We do not get the education. If we do not put forth the work and the effort, we’re not giving ourselves an opportunity. Flor: You’re not going to be able to change the outcome that the system is already curating for you. There is already this curation that is happening throughout this whole thing and is expected to end a certain way and you have to be the person that disrupts that curation and to build it to go a whole different direction. It shouldn’t be that way. It shouldn’t be our responsibility. We shouldn’t have to go in there and advocate so fucking much. It shouldn’t be that way but it’s clear right now in 2024 that the system is not doing anything to improve these outcomes. None at all. Zero. So by default, it lands in the parents’ lap. By default. Meagan: We’re already doing so much so I know that you might even be overwhelmed listening to this episode and be like, Oh my gosh. Now I have to do this too? But you deserve it. Yes. Right now, it’s unfortunate that we have to go in and we have to take charge of our own care but we can do it. You can do it. Even if you’re a people pleaser, you can do it. You really, really can. Flor: You guys, always remember that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Meagan: I love that. Flor: The squeaky wheel gets the grease so be as loud as you need to. Advocate as much as you need to. Participate as much as you need to because that’s the person who’s going to get the grease, not the person who is sitting in compliance. Meagan: Yeah. Yep. Women of Strength, thank you for listening with us today. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation. We are very passionate. If you cannot tell, we are very passionate. We want things to be better for you. We want to see change. We as doulas want to advocate for that. We want to help you. We really, really want to help you, but in the end, it’s in our laps. We have to push up. We have to keep going. I do think that it’s going to take time. Unfortunately, it’s probably going to take longer than we want it to, but if we keep advocating for this change and if we keep pushing forward and taking care of ourselves and our babies and all of this, we will slowly see change. We’ll see it. It will come. Flor: Yes. You’re not just advocating for yourself. You’re advocating for all of the people behind you as well. If you’re looking at it in the bigger picture as, “Okay, when I’m speaking up for myself, I’m speaking up for thousands of other families,” if you look at it like that, you will have the courage to speak up. Meagan: Yes. There is a listener, she was a VBAC after multiple Cesareans, more than three and everyone was shooting her down. No, no, no, no, no, no. She was like, “Nope. I’m going to do this.” She found the research and decided to go for it and did. She had a beautiful birth and a beautiful experience. Something I told her was, “You just changed that provider’s world. You just changed anyone coming in in the future with VBAC after multiple Cesareans because that provider said, ‘You’re not going to do this. It’s not going to happen. Sure, I’m going to let you try, but it’s just not going to happen. It’s not possible,’” and then she showed her it was. Providers do hold onto experiences. They do. Sometimes they have to see enough experiences to change their mindest but if we keep pushing forward and showing that this is really okay– just with breech birth. Good golly. Let’s get some more breech birth. Let’s show these providers that breech is just a variation of normal. We just have to keep going. We have to keep going and it does. It’s just bull crap that it’s in our laps and we have to do it but we do. Flor: Yeah, it’s all of us working together collectively quite honestly. It’s all of us together doing our part even if it just feels so minute and so little to you. If every single one of us just did a tiny little spec of work, it’s a huge fucking mountain that we are moving together. Meagan: I was just going to say think about how many people are in our communities alone let alone all of the people in the world. It’s powerful so believe in yourself. Believe in yourself. You deserve it. You are strong. You are completely capable. Do the work. Do the work. That is something that we do have to do. Do the work. Let’s see, what else? What other final message? Flor: Always ask for the burden of proof. Meagan: Yes. Always ask. Flor: I say it all the time, burden of proof. Show me the burden of proof. I want it on paper so I can make an informed decision. Always know that you legally have the right to make those decisions no matter what even if you are saying no to an intervention that could put you or your baby at risk. You still have the choice to say no even when real risk is at the front of your face. Risk is always subjective. That changes from person to person. You have the right to be treated like an actual human and not just a vessel. You matter too. Meagan: Yes. Ask questions. It’s okay. It’s okay to ask questions. You’re not a problem for asking questions just to let you know. It’s not a problem if you ask questions. That is something that in my opinion shows strength. If we are willing to ask a question, and it’s okay to doubt too. It’s okay to doubt. It’s okay to be like, “I don’t know if I believe that,” and then ask that question or “I’ve never heard of that. Can you show me the proof or can you show me what the outcomes are for this result?” Ask the questions. Flor: Not just tell me, show me. Meagan: Show me. Flor: I think another leg that people aren’t paying attention to is when an intervention is being suggested, really pay attention to if your provider is telling you the benefits and risks of the other side. Meagan: And the alternatives. Flor: Because if they are just telling you one side of the coin, well that’s coercive care. That’s coercive information. They should be telling you the benefits and risks to each side and the alternatives and then letting you choose. That is competent care. Meagan: Yeah. If they’re coming in and they are just telling you the risk of VBAC, we’ve talked about this. If they’re just telling you all the risks about VBAC and they’re not even talking about Cesarean, that is a problem right there. We talked about this. It starts prenatally, but I really– if you are not pregnant yet, I encourage you and you’re like, Okay, I really want a VBAC, I encourage you to start right now. Flor: 100%Meagan: Find a provider right now. Start getting the education right now. You are in a whole different mind frame than you are going to be when you are pregnant. It’s okay if you are starting when you are pregnant. Don’t ever not start. But if you are not pregnant right now and it’s like, Oh, I’m going to listen. I’m going to get these notes and I’ll start when I’m pregnant because I’m not ready yet, I actually think it is a great time to start now. Get the VBAC education. Find the provider. Understand what you are wanting. Understand your rights because it really is a different ball game. Flor: It’s a whole different ball game. When you have the luxury of time, take it. Do it because I feel like a lot of people go to get educated right at the end in the last trimester and I want you guys to know something. Your brain functionality starts to decrease at the end of pregnancy. Meagan: You’re overwhelmed. Flor: You’re not supposed to be using a lot of brain function at the end of pregnancy because your primal birth brain is trying to take over. You trying to learn at a time where your brain function is decreased is not optimal. It is not. You need to get educated absolutely now even if you’re like, I’m just not sure if I want to have another baby, get educated. What is the risk to you getting educated? Meagan: Well, and honestly, it’s just going to help the next person even if you don’t have that baby and your best friend gets pregnant, you’re going to help them and you’re going to guide them in the right direction to help them get educated. You’re going to help change. It’s those minute changes that we are doing in life that are going to make a huge impact. Flor: Huge impact. Absolutely. Make sure that your partners are showing up with you because it is not going to be doable if your partner is showing up just to sit in the corner and be fearful and not understand things, not be educated, not know how to advocate, not know what questions to ask, they will not be of any help to you. You need someone who is going to show up in that same brain capacity and be able to hand it over to them essentially because you shouldn’t be doing any type of fucking thinking during the labor. Meagan: Right? I mean, look at what happened to me. It went straight on to my husband and he was like, “I don’t know,” and it was just like, “No, we’ve got to go. We’ve got to go.” It was awful. It was awful. It was really, really hard and it was something that I made sure was not going to happen again. We are not going to do that again. We are going to make sure that you are okay with this and that you understand so when someone just comes in and says this one little fear tactic, you don’t just crumble to the floor. Flor: Absolutely. Absolutely. These partners have got to start showing up in a different way. They just cannot leave all of these childbearing things up to the person who is pregnant. One, it’s not fair. Two, it’s not adequate enough. Meagan: We can’t. Flor: It’s not adequate enough. I can’t tell you how many times people are like, “I ended up in a C-section and I feel like it wsa all my partner’s fault. They pushed me to do it. They didn’t help me at all. They didn’t advocate. They didn’t even show up to the classes and I just feel like it’s all their fault or they wanted me to hurry up and get it over with.” Meagan: I mean, I love my husband to absolute pieces. I told this story before how when I told him I wanted a VBAC after two C-sections, he was like, “What? What? No. Let’s just go unzip you.” He said that word, you guys. He said that word. He said, “Let’s just go unzip ya.” That is not okay. He was so far away from understanding and I had to really reel him in. We get it. These partners are also scared. They are scared. They don’t know. They are vulnerable too. It’s not just you. It’s also their baby that they care about. They hear the negative things out there in the world and they see the word “uterine rupture” and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, no. I can’t.” Or they’re like, “We’re out here. We’re providing. We can’t do that childbirth education. We can’t do those VBAC courses,” but really, it’s so important because they have to be there with you. They are your rock too. They are your rock. You have to have them. I’m going to tell you. In labor, you can’t always be 100% in your mind. Flor: You shouldn’t be either. Meagan: Yeah, well because we are laboring. We need to focus on getting a baby here and we can’t be thinking about all of the things that we need to be asking the next time the provider comes in. That is where a doula can help and can help encourage your partner. “Hey, these are some things to ask next time,” and help but it helps even more if they have done the work and they are with you. They are with you in this journey. Flor: Yes, they have to be with you and understanding that you and the baby are a diad. You are one. You are not separate from each other. When you do well, the baby does well. When you don’t do well, the baby doesn’t do well. It’s one person. You are one unit. They are not separate from each other. Partners really need to understand that and also really think about what type of energy you are putting into these statistics and the numbers because if a provider is telling you, “You have a 0.7% chance of rupturing,” okay. So there’s a 99% chance I’m not going to. How different does that sound? Meagan: Let’s flip that. We talk about that on the podcast too. Let’s flip it. Let’s start focusing on those little tiny numbers on the chance that you do, it’s important to know that, but let’s flip it and look at it like, “Okay, so I have a 98-99% chance of not rupturing.” Flor: Right. Meagan: Okay. Okay. That feels good. I think that’s a good risk right there. I’ll take that. Flor: Exactly. Exactly. Obviously, it’s not up to us to be in charge of pulling our partners out of that fear. That shouldn’t be our responsibility, but it’s okay to look your partner in the face and say, “This is what I’m needing from you. This is what I’m wanting and these are the reasons why and I’m the person who has to give birth to this baby and I’m the person who has to recover for the rest of my life with how this birth turns out. Me.”Right? When I showed up for my VBAC, I went in thinking my husband was going to fight me on it so I showed up like, “Listen. We’re going to have a fucking VBAC. I don’t give a shit what you’re going to say.” I showed up ready to fight. Meagan: We actually did get in a fight at a restaurant because I was like, “This is what’s going to happen. We’re going to have this many people and by the way, I’m actually not going to birth in the hospital either.” He was like, “What the hell?” I was like, “It’s going to happen.” I was like, “You’re going to have to meet me right up here. I’m not coming down here. You’re going to have to meet me up here.” And I’m so grateful that he did. I really am so grateful and honestly, it changed him. It changed his perspective. It changed his narrative of birth. He was like, “Oh wait, yeah no. We would never do it any other way. That was amazing.” Flor: Right? Luckily for me, my husband didn’t fight me. I went in guns blazing thinking he was going to but he was like, “Look. You’re the one who’s pregnant. You’re the one who has to give birth. Whatever you choose, I’m on board. I will support you and I trust whatever decision you make. I can’t tell you what to do,” so then I felt like a jerk after. Meagan: My husband was too. He did put his two cents in of, “Oh, so you’re just going to choose the most expensive option?” That was what he said in the end, but in the end he was like, “Okay, cool. We’re going.” We know. We know. We see it. I’ve done so many consultations with people where they are like, “My husband is just not on board and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do.” I think one of the very first things that I suggest is to educate them because they are usually making those quick no’s and they’re very against it because they are just uneducated and they are scared. Flor: Yeah. That’s generally where it’s coming from is a lack of education and following that thread of fear. Those shouldn’t be the places where someone is making that decision. Someone should get educated and then we’ll discuss what you think and what your opinion is. Know that it’s just that. It’s an opinion and it’s not going to be the detour of what I’m going to do with my birth. It just shouldn’t be that way. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Flor: We already live in such a patriarchal system as it is. I’ve seen lots of partners saying no to doulas being on board. Meagan: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Flor: Why? Meagan: My husband was one of those. My husband was one of those. He was so anti-doula and his reason was, “Well, I don’t want to be replaced.” I was like, “It’s not like that,” with my second. It is not like that at all. It just was so hard and we didn’t have a doula and we ended up in a repeat Cesarean. I’m not saying I ended up in a repeat Cesearean because I didn’t have a doula but I definitely wish I had some of that extra support when things were turned on me and someone to help him understand too but there are so many other things with that birth. I was with the wrong provider. That’s what it was. I just didn’t make the full change for myself. Flor: The thing with that too is that a lot of men do not show up for women fully 100% because there’s really not a lot of opportunities where they do show up to be 100% there for their partners. Birth is one of those spaces where they need to do that and they’re not used to that. They’re not used to showing up to that capacity of really not centering themselves. Meagan: Yep. Flor: What is this doula going to take away from me? What is being at home going to take away from me? What is this going to require? That is someone centering themselves instead of looking at the situation and saying, “What is it that you need from me? How can I help you? How can I help you be most comfortable? I want you to be as happy as possible in this situation.” That’s the type of energy that we need people to show up to the birth for. Stop centering yourself. It’s not about you. When it’s your turn to give birth, then we will do whatever you want to do, but until that time comes, it’s about me. Meagan: You’ve got to come up here. Yeah. Flor: It’s about me. Meagan: It is about you, Women of Strength. We love you. We love you. Like I said in the beginning, we see you. We hear you. We feel you. Literally, from one VBAC mom, two VBAC moms to another, we understand. We are with you in this journey. We are cheering you on. This message today is to hopefully motivate you, educate you, plant a seed or whatever you want to take it as, give you the motivation or the oomph to do what’s best for you truly. Truly do what’s best for you and let’s change the narrative. Flor: Yep. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands