TVL Holiday Special #1 Olga Leiser’s Breech VBAC + 2VBAC

“We named her Frankie because she was frank breech.”Guess what, Women of Strength? For the month of December, our gift to you is TWO weekly episodes! We are honored to kick off our Holiday Special episodes with our amazingly impressive friend, Olga. Olga shares her birth stories of an unplanned Cesarean, a frank breech VBAC, then ending full circle with an unmedicated VBAC. She has so much wisdom to share and we are here for all of it. She experienced so much personal growth and transformation with each birth.Topics include:AROM checklistHip DysplasiaProtecting your mental space before birthFreezing colostrum during pregnancySibling doulasHappy Holidays, TVL Community!Additional linksBebo Mia’s WebinarThe VBAC Link Doula Training CourseInformed Pregnancy Podcast VBAC Breech EpisodeHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.Hello, hello you guys. This is our very first-ever holiday edition. I decided that in the month of December, we are going to put out two episodes a week. I am so excited today to bring you the first one. This is a good friend of mine. Her name is Olga. You guys, she is amazing. She is a powerhouse mom. That is for sure. She graduated from Harvard. She’s been featured in Forbes magazine with 30 under 30, 40 under 40, Cranes New York. She has run an insanely successful business. She raises three kids. She is an amazing wife, an amazing person, so amazing. I’m so honored to have her here with us today. She has a story to share with you that we actually haven’t heard for a long time. It’s going to be a breech VBAC. Review of the WeekMeagan: I’m so excited to hear her story, but of course, we have a review of the week so before we do that, I’m going to review our course actually. This is from Erin Stanton. She says, “I absolutely love this doula training course. I feel far more prepared on the unique needs of the family planning of VBAC birth. Thank you so much for creating this resource for birth professionals and families.” Thank you, Erin. If you guys did not know, we have a course for both preparing parents that are wanting to know their options for birth after Cesarean and then we offer an education course for doulas and birth workers who want to learn more about the unique needs of a VBAC parent and a VBAC family. Unfortunately, we talk about this all of the time that we are just people going in to have babies just like everybody else, but because we have that previous Cesarean, unfortunately, we have this unique part where we are viewed a little bit differently in most of the medical world. So if you are wanting to dive in and learn more about your options for birth after Cesarean or how to support your birthing clients, definitely check out our website at thevbaclink.com.Olga’s StoryOlga: I’m actually the person who took a class, too. Meagan: Yes, you did. Olga: I loved the course and actually, I did it with my husband which was really helpful for him to feel more comfortable about the birth. I definitely, highly recommend it. I know you didn’t ask my opinion, but I do highly recommend the course. Meagan: I love your opinion. It is so important. My husband, personally, didn’t want to do any of the birthing courses with me and wasn’t super interested in it. He just didn’t understand it way back when. Now, he’s like, “Oh, yeah. I totally get it.” But it’s so awesome to do with your significant other or your birthing partner because VBAC definitely has some things and some scare tactics, and just some interesting things that come along the way. If your partner can be as educated as you are, you’re not feeling left like you have to defend your reason why you do or don’t want to do something, so it’s so great for you guys to be in a collaborative space. You guys know, you’re educated equally, and then you can support each other because they need support too. Olga: Totally. Your course is awesome because it was self-paced, so we actually broke it down into 30 minutes. We did it whenever our toddler was sleeping. We did it on Saturdays together and I think it brought us together and got him comfortable with the idea of a VBAC because it has so many helpful statistics about how safe it is. I think as you said, there are so many scare tactics, but when you see data on paper in front of you, it just helps lose that fear, so I highly recommend it. I’m sorry to jump in. Meagan: No, I love it. I love it. Why don’t we just segue right into your amazing birth journeys? I feel like in ways, I have in each birth– and it’s probably with everyone really. We all each have unique birth stories, but I feel like all of your birth stories have even more unique spins. You have very different things and each one of them is even more amazing. So let’s turn the time over to you and share your stories. Olga: Thank you. I am just so privileged to be here because I listened to every single podcast episode when I was preparing for my VBAC. I feel like I know you so well, so it’s just such an honor. So thank you so much for having me. To jump right in and start the story where it really started, I had a miscarriage before my first birth. I just think that people who have gone through miscarriages– it’s just such a difficult situation and it’s such a difficult process. I do think that I was definitely depressed after and I think having a miscarriage before you have kids is so difficult too because you are questioning, “Can my body even have a baby?” and all sorts of things. When I got pregnant with my first baby girl who made me a mommy, who I wouldn’t change anything for the world, I really was scared. We did not take a single course because when I got pregnant with my miscarriage baby, I bought all of the books and I started planning in my mind. I think as I got pregnant, I was just scared to jinx it. I think I really didn’t even admit it to myself that I was pregnant or get attached to the baby– Meagan: Yeah, that is very common. Olga: –until I was probably 24 weeks. I remember reading, it was like, “Hit 24 weeks and the baby’s survival rate was 90%.” I really took a deep breath. I felt like at that point, I was like, “Oh my god. I am having a baby.” Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Olga: And so I think a lot of things I did differently with preparing for my VBAC were the complete opposite from my first birth. I trusted the provider right away. I sort of fell into this– I was living in New York City. I had lived in New York City for 15 years at the time. My OB had a practice on the floor above her that was delivering babies. She was like, “Okay, that’s where you go.” It turned out that the practice was pretty desirable. I didn’t know the questions to ask and I just sort of, as you said early on, trusted that we all deliver babies and I would know what to do when it all happened. Meagan: Right. Olga: We looked at having a doula and we thought it was this boho thing to do. We were two professionals in New York and we were like, “Whatever.” We knew the doctors. We were delivering at NYU, and so it was this sort of fear of losing the baby, not believing that we were pregnant, and then trusting the system, trusting that they have the best interests in mind and that everything will be done. And then the other thing I think is that there is so much pressure around you that it’s 40 weeks, everybody is like, “It’s 9 months.” I never even knew that people go past their due date ever. I am a fairly educated person, but I’ve never heard anything. To be fair, I did not take any courses or anything with my first because I was just so scared of the jinxing of having a baby. I literally was– here we are, about to go into the birth. At 40 weeks, I was just like, “Oh my god. The baby is not here.” My husband has two sisters and they all delivered pretty early. They were like, “Be prepared.” So at 32 weeks, I wrote a transition birth plan in my office. Everybody was ready and then here we are two months later and still no baby. The other thing is that my daughter is named after my grandma who is the closest person on earth to me. She is no longer with us. She was born on January 1st and my due date, I think, was January 4th and so I was sure I would be birthing on January 1st. I think I mentally prepared myself so when that didn’t happen and the due date came and there was no baby, I was like, “What is going on?” I gained quite a lot of weight because I felt like it was a free pass to eat whatever I wanted to. Meagan: Oh man, right here. That’s what happened to me too. Olga: That was you? Yeah. Also, I was in New York City. They were so scared of me falling on ice that they wouldn’t let me work out. I also had some sort of previous situations where I was sort of put on no working out starting in the second trimester and no sex. I mean, it was nothing scary. I had two little procedures. I had precancer cells early on. They cut those out, so they were worried that the cervix wouldn’t hold the baby. They were like, “Don’t work out. Don’t do this.” I’m not naturally working out because I’m not walking. It’s winter in New York City. I’m going and not doing anything, so I was gaining weight and eating whatever I wanted. I also did not know anything about baby positioning, so I was lying in the corner of my couch every night, basically encouraging my baby to be OP which we will talk about as I prepared for my second birth. I got sciatica or whatever it’s called. Meagan: Sciatica? Uh-huh. Olga: Sciatica, yeah. Meagan: Which is miserable.Olga: Well, so it was on my due date. I was actually at a museum with my husband and my mom. We were so amateur that we flew my mom in at 39 weeks to help us and here we are, no baby and we were like, “What are we doing?” Both of us were working crazy hours. I was in the office the day before I delivered. There was no mental preparation. It was sort of like this was happening to me and I wasn’t in control of the process whatsoever. I was letting all of these things happen to me. The doctor was like, “Oh, you should go take a bath,” so I went in to go and take a bath. When I was in the bath, there was some sort of liquid that came out. As pregnant women know, there’s just stuff that happens to our bodies, so I didn’t think anything of it except, later on, I called them and I was like, The leg didn’t get better.” I couldn’t walk, basically, during the last few days of my pregnancy. I was like, “The leg didn’t get better, but my underwear just keeps getting wet.” She’s like, “Well, your water probably broke, so you have to come to the hospital within 12 hours.” The 12 hours was supposed to be 3:00 a.m. I was like, to my husband, “Let’s just leave more.” So at 6:00 a.m., we go to the hospital. They test my underwear and they were like, “Oh yeah, your water did break.” They admitted me to the hospital and there were no contractions, nothing. The woman, the doctor comes in. She checks my water levels through an ultrasound and she’s like, “Oh no. There’s so much water. Your water didn’t break. But now you’re here and you’re admitted, so you’re going to stay and we will induce you.” To be fair, they did give me an option of whether to be induced or not, but when you are uneducated, everything being positioned to you is very much like, “This is what you do next,” as opposed to, “Here are the risks. Here are the benefits.” Because I was in so much pain, I couldn’t really walk, and I was ready. I felt so ready. And also, mentally, my mother-in-law was there, and we were ready to send my mom back. I felt so much pressure on me to go and deliver this baby as opposed to waiting for this natural moment of her being ready. Also, they were so worried about infection because they did think the water was breaking first and then they kind of put this fear in me. Long story short, they started me on Pitocin. I think they did the Foley bulb. That fell out. At 4 centimeters, I get an epidural. Again, everything is positioned like, “This is what you do.” I was also very natural during pregnancy. I didn’t drink coffee. I just was so thoughtful about it. At that point, I’m like, “Give me all of the drugs.” I was so scared of this birth. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Olga: We’ll talk later about how my attitude shifted during this experience. There, I was like, “Give me all of the drugs.” They put an epidural in me. I’m rotating. They were like, “Oh, we’ll see you in the morning.” I did dilate from 6 to 10 centimeters in an hour. Meagan: Which is amazing. Olga: But I’m telling the nurse, I’m like, “I have to go poop,” or “I have to push.” She’s like, “No. That’s not possible.” So I did have to advocate for myself a little for them to check me. They checked me and they were like, “Oh my god. Yes, that’s true.” So they check me. I’m 10 centimeters and they were like, “Here we go. Time to push.” I pushed for three and a half hours. The baby was OP. They did break my water at 4 centimeters which is probably why I dilated so fast. Nobody checked the baby’s positioning. She was really, really, really high up, OP, and I know all of this thanks to the course that I did with you because, after the course, I did request my operating notes. Those are all of the things that I was able to learn in those operating notes. I remember making that call was so scary, but after three and a half hours, I was okay. My epidural didn’t work. It stopped working and I was feeling all of the pain. I will say that the Pitocin contractions are so brutal. There’s no break for a woman. Again, now that I’ve experienced natural labor, it’s just so different. Meagan: It’s very different, yeah. Olga: Very different.Meagan: They are in a whole different ballpark with Pitocin versus natural Pitocin. Olga: Absolutely. Exactly. There were three times in my labor that I truly thought I was going to die actually. I had this out-of-body experience where I wanted to move. My body was screaming, “Move!” and they wouldn’t let me because I had an epidural and I was lying down. My body took over and I got on my knees and my fours. Sadly, that was already three hours into pushing, but I was still willing to push more. I was so committed and the doctor’s position was, “No.” I did ask her for 30 minutes more. The baby would come down as I was pushing and then she would come back up because she was stuck. There was no lubricant. They broke my water. Again, now knowing everything, I’m so glad for whoever is listening to this episode. Everything I’ve learned and educated myself with was through the course and listening to the podcasts. But here I am with a really traumatic birth in the sense that they rolled me in after three and a half hours of pushing and 24 hours of labor. I’m exhausted. I developed a fever by that point. They get the baby out and I’m shaking. I literally want to cry just flashing back to that experience. Yeah. Lying down there, arms trapped and shaking profusely. The baby comes out. Of course, you are happy to see the baby. Who isn’t? They touched cheek to cheek. They didn’t do skin-to-skin or anything like that. The anesthesiologist is like, “Do you want me to knock you down?” And I said, “Yes.” Meagan: Because you were shaking so badly? Olga: I was shaking so badly. I remember asking my husband to tell me why he loves me and how we met. He was just sitting there next to me telling me the story of how we met and why he fell in love with me because I just wanted to make it all worth it. I don’t know what was going on through that, but his telling me that story is what started to calm me down. But I wanted to get knocked down. I was shaking. I was cold. The experience is not what I later loved about delivering vaginally. I also felt like those things were done to me as opposed to my body birthing my child. I remember a few days after, I didn’t even see my baby. They took her to NICU because I had a fever. They put her on antibiotics. She also had jaundice. Everybody was texting us, “Oh, did you have the baby? What’s the baby’s name?” It honestly didn’t feel like I had the baby. You still have the tummy. You’re just lying there and in New York, I really hope nobody delivers in the kind of inhumane conditions. You’re next to other people who maybe have their baby. You’re sharing a room. Meagan: That’s crazy. Olga: It’s really crazy. I just felt like I didn’t know if I delivered the baby. I didn’t know any of those things. It was not a pleasant experience. My girlfriends were asking me after. They were like, “Oh, are you going to have more kids?” At that point, I was like, “No. I don't think I’m going to have more kids.” It felt like my body failed me which is unfortunate to say, but in reality, I failed my body in part too because I wasn’t prepared to advocate for myself. That was a really traumatic experience for Ryan, my husband, and really traumatic for me. Part of it was not being educated, not knowing a lot, and letting somebody else decide what is right for me. But I did have a beautiful baby girl.Meagan: And her name is Lara? Olga: Her name is Lara. She is named after my grandma. She was born on January 7th and she made me a mommy and I will forever be grateful to her for that. When she was one, I got pregnant with my little Frankie. She was basically a COVID baby. I decided that I was going to step down. I had a really intense job. As I said, I worked right before I delivered my baby. I went back to work four days after. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Olga: Yeah. It definitely took me– literally on the day of the C-section, I came home and I had a call. It was investors and things like that. A lot of it was self-imposed. I think it did take me a minute to figure out that I’m a parent and that things have changed. I’m a very driven person as many people are. Yeah. I just felt a little bit disconnected at the moment from my body and the birth realizing all of that stuff. I went back to work. I had the most amazing nanny who helped me and my mom was there, so I felt very supported, but my C-section recovery was brutal. I had to sleep sitting up. I couldn’t lie down. I don’t know now why that was. I was on all of these drugs. I just was in so much pain. Again, I don’t wish C-section on anybody. I do think it saves lives and I think there is a place for it, absolutely. I think it is the most amazing invention, but I don’t think it should be as widely used as it is today by just anybody when you get bored. I later learned that my doctor was about to change shifts and she just was ready for me to get this going. I love when you guys talk about failure to progress as failure to wait. I mean, obviously, mine wasn’t about failure to progress but it was about partially about failure to wait and also not letting my body move around and get this baby in the position that my body needed it to be in. Fast forward, here I was. I decided that I was going to take a year off. I worked really crazy with no vacations for many years and then I decided to take a year off and travel. Of course, you plan and then life happens. COVID happens. I get pregnant and I was going to travel with my one little girl, but I definitely wanted my kids to be close in age. We got pregnant and we found out it was a little girl. COVID pregnancy was definitely a challenge and I think you covered it. Husbands couldn’t go there. You don’t have support. You don’t have as much self-care. I think it’s different today, but we were really early in COVID. At the time, I lived in New York City and it was very, very scary to be there. We moved literally in four days. My girlfriend who lived in L.A. was like, “Stay in my house. We are going up to San Francisco because my parents need to help with childcare,” so we moved in four days. We told to movers just to send it to L.A. and that we were going to find an apartment. It was an incredible decision for us because, in COVID, I was able to be active. The weather was nice. My toddler could run around and explore. It was a really wonderful decision. I ended up working through COVID because the situation was so volatile that my board asked me to stay. I did end up stepping down a month before my baby was born. But even though I was working, my husband always laughs. I was a Type A student. I took VBAC as something I was really going to learn a lot about and feel really prepared. I took the class with you. I got a doula who also was a VBAC mama. I know you guys have a directory of VBAC-trained doulas and I think that is so, so important. My doula was incredible. I started preparing mentally and physically. I read a lot about Spinning Babies and really getting baby into the optimal position. I walked for 3 miles. I ran for as long as I could and then I walked for 3 miles at the end. There was a ritual that my husband and I did. We would put our toddler to bed and then we would walk around our house. It was our moment for each other, but also to bring us together and talk about the VBAC, and talk about us preparing. Those months preparing for the VBAC were what I should have done probably with my first, but you live and you learn. I’m so grateful that I’ve had all of these experiences. I stayed active. I learned a lot. I listened to the podcast. I took the course. Every time I would go to the chiropractor or my doctor, I would just listen to an episode. One piece of advice that I have, and I know we haven’t talked about giving advice to people, but I would save my favorite episodes so at the end, during my last month, I only stayed in positive spaces. I only listened to the episodes that I saved. Meagan: I love that. Olga: There was an episode that you guys had where a woman from Atlanta also had a breech birth because, at that time, I already knew that I was having breech. She had it out of Atlanta. She is a wife of a football guy maybe. Meagan: Uh-huh, yep. Olga: I don’t remember her name, but that episode, I probably listened to 10-20 times in that last month just to channel that positivity. With my third baby which I will talk about in a second, I also had a few episodes that were relevant to me and I just felt like relistening to them all of the time was a really helpful thing for me at least. That’s my advice is to save your favorites so that you can easily channel them and listen to them. Meagan: I love that. Olga: I saved for my husband the episodes I wanted him to hear. Very curated. I would be like, “Listen to this girl. She pushed for a long time too,” or whatever so that he was comfortable, but that he also knew what to do and how to get comfortable. By the end of August, my baby was born at the end of September, but by the end of August, I stepped down from my job. Again, I feel very privileged that I was able to do that. I know a lot of people have to work until the last moment. But even if you have to work until the last moment, I think carving out space for yourself and your baby and connecting with them is so, so valuable. Whether it’s when your toddler is napping or when your husband comes home, even if it’s that 3-mile walk around the neighborhood, I just think that we expect our bodies and ourselves to just go with this birth. No. It’s a big thing in our lives. Let’s give it the attention that it deserves. I really eliminated anything. That last month was just so spiritual for me and really, surrender is the word that I wrote above my bed. Anytime I would have things that you guys would say or I learned, I would write in big letters and put these flashcards next to my bed so that I would remind myself. I think I still have it. Meagan: I love that. Olga: And by the way, “Eat before you go to the hospital” was my big one. Meagan: Yes. Olga: A couple of things– I know some people consider home birth but for me, the hospital was a no-brainer. Actually, even though I had this traumatic birth, luckily, I was now in a different city, so the hospital was different. I didn’t have those negative associations with this hospital, but for me, hospitals actually make me feel safe because I feel like if I need help, there is care just seconds away which we will talk about how that played into my birth as it unfolded later on. We never even contemplated the idea of home birth. When I moved to L.A., as I said I was staying at my friend’s house and I asked her about who her OB was. The one thing that was really, really important to me was having the same person who sees me deliver the baby. That, I really knew was important to me because the first practice was a rotating practice and I felt lost because I would see different providers at different times. I felt like there was no consistency of advice or thoughts. It was just that everybody would give you different things. Even before I found the amazing provider who I ended up with, even before that, the few places that I called, I was always asking. I did decide not to go with a few practices because they were on a rotating schedule. The woman I found was absolutely lovely and I think was probably VBAC-friendly as opposed to VBAC-supportive. At least she wanted to position herself as VBAC-supportive, but I could tell that she was more on the VBAC-friendly side. She was delivering all of her patients and that was important to me. So when my baby consistently was showing up breech, I was 30 weeks and I was like, “Well, I know you keep saying that it’s still okay. The baby might turn, but if the baby continues to be breech, can I still have a VBAC?” At that point, she said, “No. It’s hospital policy.” Mind you, I delivered a breech VBAC at that same hospital. She said, “It’s hospital policy to do breech via C-section.” So I said, “Thank you.” Through your podcast, I already listened to women who had delivered breech vaginally. I started looking for a provider. I saw Dr. Berlin who I think you have had on the podcast for chiropractic care. Meagan: Yes, so amazing. So amazing. Olga: Yes. I love him so much. When I found him through my doula, I was like, “Dr. Berlin, she continues to be breech,” and she was like, “Oh, then you see Dr. Brock.” I was like, “What? I see Dr. Brock. Who is Dr. Brock?” Then I went and listened to his podcast. He has a podcast as well called Informed Pregnancy with Dr. Brock. As I was driving home, I listened to a breech VBAC birth with Dr. Brock, I just loved him. He was totally a straight shooter just like me. I was like, “This is going to be my doctor.” Making that phone call to him and be like, “Will you take me? I’m 34 weeks,” was really scary. He was like, “Absolutely.” It was so empowering. I saw him and he is just amazing. I switched my care at 34, maybe it was 35 weeks to Dr. Brock in L.A. He delivers at Cedars. Again, that other doctor was saying it was a hospital policy not to do breech. Guess what? Dr. Brock delivered at the same hospital a breech VBAC. When baby continued to be breech, I think at 36 weeks, he did an ultrasound to confirm the position. He honestly gave me the most informed decisions. He said, “You have three options. You can have a C-section if you want and here are the risks. You can have an ECV and try to turn the baby, and you can just not have an ECV and you can have a breech VBAC.” I guess there were four options. He was like, “You can have an ECV and still decide to have a C-section. You don’t have to do an ECV and you could have a C-section or you could have a vaginal birth.” I wanted to try to turn the baby. I had an ECV. Dr. Brock has a pretty high chance of turning during an ECV. I also did acupuncture and moxibustion. I did it all. I had Dr. Berlin who is known to turn babies do all of his magic. I did Spinning Babies. I did the ice over my belly. She is stubborn. She was stubborn in my belly. She is so stubborn still. She was really wedged down in my pelvis. She was really low really early in my pregnancy. She was really breech. Meagan: Not moving. Olga: Yeah, she was not going to change. She wanted her own story. I will say that women who have breech babies just have to remind themselves that breech is a variation of normal. That saying was a mantra for me that I kept. “Breech is a variation of normal. Breech is a variation of normal,” and just reminding myself that this is just a variation of normal and that it’s okay to have a breech baby. Of course, I was nervous.Meagan: Right, yeah.Olga: Breech babies can have their complications and Dr. Brock was terrific at explaining all of the risks. The bottom line is that the risks of breech are very different than the risks of VBAC. They are just different. It’s not like the breech VBAC is scarier or more difficult. It’s that they just each have their own fears. We decided to do breech VBAC. Dr. Brock is a super expert in that. We felt really supported. It did change a few things. I really wanted an unmedicated VBAC because my epidural failed with my first and I also never wanted Pitocin. I just wanted to move around. There is something I learned which is a walking epidural which I actually did not use, but my hospital at Cedars offers. For anybody listening, they should learn about a walking epidural. It sounds like a way better option than just the regular epidural but everybody has their own choice obviously. The walking epidural allows you to move around. Meagan: It’s a lighter dose. It’s technically a lighter dose. Like you were saying, you were fighting the urge to move with your first one and your body took over and you went hands and knees, with a walking epidural, it’s lighter. You’re able to feel a little bit more, but still not feel everything if that makes sense. Olga: Yeah. I was so scared about the positioning and everything as well. I wanted to move. I wanted an unmedicated VBAC, but as we learned that she was breech, my doctor’s rules were that you had to get an epidural for the delivery stage which I also didn’t know that pushing and delivery are two different stages.For him, you can push without an epidural, but as it came time to deliver the baby, there was a chance in a breech that he had to move the baby and he needed the mother to stay completely still obviously because my understanding is that with breech, the biggest risk is that if the butt comes out and it’s so big that it blocks the cord and there is no air coming into the baby’s head. So he at that moment would have to maneuver and deliver the baby right away fully and he could not have the mother move around. That is obviously, the worst-case scenario. That’s why you want to have a provider who is very experienced. I knew that I would have an epidural. I get to the hospital. Long story short, here we are. I am mentally prepared. I have an amazing provider. I studied with you guys. I listened to all of the podcasts and it’s Friday. I’ll never forget it. My husband was like, “I’m going to go golf. Are you okay with that?” I’m 39+2 days. As a reminder, my first baby was late. Meagan: Yep. Olga: I was like, “Fine.” Oh actually, after the ECV, I do have to say that he did check me. I was at 37.5 weeks. I was 4 centimeters dilated already.Meagan: Okay, so your body was doing some prep. Olga: Yeah, so I was already 4 centimeters dilated, but my doctor told me and I think I was 50%, maybe 80% effaced. He was saying to me, “Guess what? As a second baby, you can go for weeks like that.” Meagan: So true. Olga: That was a good reminder not to freak out, but I still put everybody on alert. The other thing I did the last month was that I really stopped talking to anybody negatively even close people in my life. I do recommend creating and being your own advocate. What do you need? I needed a positive space, a healthy and happy. I didn’t listen to any podcasts that I didn’t preapprove in my prep before. I was just in this happy, protective space. Meagan: Yes. Olga: I wasn’t reading the news. I really isolated myself to these happy things and hung out with my toddler. As I said, I stepped down from work and really had the space to prepare. I got my own gown for the hospital. I got my own socks for the hospital. I got an IV band that said, “I can do this,” to remind myself and really cover because I didn’t want to get an IV, but my hospital still required me to get one. Meagan: Especially with VBAC. Olga: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to cover that because again, I wanted to be in this special mental space. My husband was like, “Oh. I’m going to go golf.” I’m like, “No problem. It’s a Friday. Go golf.” I was kind of feeling yucky. Meagan: Signs. Olga: I was texting my girlfriend, but I didn’t take it as a sign at all because I didn’t feel great with my first baby at the end, so I figured it was just sort of that I was getting so late in the pregnancy. I remember texting my girlfriend. I’m like, “Do you remember feeling yucky at the end?” She was like, “I really don’t.” I was like, “I’m feeling so yucky today.” I had a work call. I took the call and I’m starting to have this leakage in my underwear. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well, just put a pad on it.” Sorry, TMI. But I’m like, “Okay.” I put a pad on it which I wouldn’t have even thought. I love and am such a big advocate for doulas. My doula, Elizabeth, from Luma Birth but used to be Grace and Gratitude is just so incredible. So I basically went in and put the pad in. It kept soaking but super slowly. From listening to your podcast and from all of the studies, you always say that if your water breaks, if you stay in your own environment with your own bacteria, there is really not a high risk of infection. Just don’t go outside. So I was like, “Okay. I’ll stay home,” even if the water broke. Literally, I am at home in the middle of this work call and it dawns on me, “Oh my god. What if it is different with breech?” So I freak out. I’m like, “Oh, I am so sorry. I have to call you back.” I hang up the phone and call my doctor. I’m like, “Dr. Brock. There is a small chance that my water broke. It is leaking. I didn’t have a gush or anything like that.” I’m like, “Oh my god. Do I come to see you? It’s still Friday.” He’s like, “Okay. Here’s the thing. If your water broke, I’ll see you in 12-24 hours because your contractions are going to start. If your water didn’t break, I’ll see you on Monday for our scheduled appointment.” You know, he is incredible. He is so professional. He has done millions of births. He has done breech VBAC and to hear the reassurance from him. He was so calm and collected. This just again is a reminder to everybody who is listening that if your water breaks, don’t worry. Until contractions start, nothing else matters. Your water breaking doesn’t mean your labor began at least in my opinion. Meagan: It doesn’t mean you’re going to have a baby at home necessarily either. You have to have contractions.Olga: Right, no. Meagan: You have to push a baby out. It’s so hard. I always want to remind people that if your heart and your mind and your whole soul and your intuition is saying that you need to go somewhere else, then follow it. But if not, you’re typically pretty safe just hanging out and waiting for labor to begin. Olga: Totally and that was so helpful for me that he reassured me. And now, looking back, I do think that my daughter’s water broker partially from just the leaking, and I was rushed to the hospital when I did. I probably would have leaked over time. That was happening, so all day, I was feeling yucky. I wasn’t having any contractions, at least the ones that I could feel. Again, I have never felt natural contractions so I wouldn’t even know what it was feeling like. Meagan: Right. Olga: It was all happening. I did lose my mucus plug weeks before. So here I am. I ordered Domino’s. I just was sort of in this environment and my daughter who was at the time 20 months knew. She was holding my baby the whole day. Meagan: Clingy. Olga: Yeah, yeah. Looking back at the pictures from the day, it was one of the sweetest days of my life, to be honest. We just hung out at home, held each other, and watched shows, which, we almost never watch TV. It was a really special day. And then my husband came home. I was like, “You know what? I’m tired. I’m just going to go rest.” At 1:00 a.m., I woke up to go to the bathroom which as anybody in the third trimester knows, we go to the bathroom a lot at the end. I go in there and I’m on the potty. I sit there and I almost felt like she just kicked me. It was like, “Now I know.” It was such a strong contraction. I moved around in the bathroom and it felt great for me to sit in the bathroom always through the third trimester, so I did spend a lot of time on the toilet. I was sitting there. I repositioned myself. I got up to go back to bed. I didn’t think anything of it and then boom I get another one. When people say that when contractions start, you know you know, you absolutely know. Meagan: You know, yeah. Olga: On the second contraction, I woke up my husband and I was like, “This is the real deal.” To be fair, for a week before, I did have some Braxton Hicks which I didn’t really have with my first. I was calling my doula and I’m like, “I’m having contractions and we are walking around.” She was like, “Okay. How long are they lasting?” I’m like, “I don’t know. They fizzle out.” She’s like, “That’s not a real contraction then.” It is so helpful to have a doula because you can ask all of these questions that maybe feel silly but they’re not. Meagan: Well, and help you avoid going in if you don’t need to go in and having to call a doctor to get a question. It just helps, yeah. Olga: Totally, totally. So here, I woke up my husband. I’m like, “I know it’s real.” We called my doula. She was like, “Stay at home as long as you want and as long as you know.” I’m going to start getting ready. This is 1:00 a.m. On Friday morning, I recall my water breaking at 9:00 a.m. and leaking. This is 1:00 a.m. on Saturday morning. I woke him up. My doula was like, “Listen, let your husband sleep so that he can get some rest, and if you can sleep, sleep as well,” but I was like, “I’m not going to be able to sleep.”I’m calling my girlfriend who is on call to take my baby. She is not picking up the phone which is quite a story but I’m like, “Okay. Let’s get going here.” He went to bed in the living room and about 20 minutes in, I woke him up. I’m like, “We have to go to the hospital.” But I guess it wasn’t 20 minutes later. It was probably about 4:00 a.m. I just knew at that time that it was starting to get real. Meagan: This is it. Olga: I do have to say that this birth, to me, was so spiritual. During my wedding, I honored my grandma. As I already mentioned, I honored my grandma during the naming of my first baby. But I was not really thinking about my grandma during this birth and during my prep. She was there. I just know. This birth was so spiritual. I was preparing by moving. I read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth. I love that book. I was practicing moving. I was practicing doing all of these things. I was singing like my grandma would. Out of nowhere, and I am not good. Let me preface, I am not a singer or anything like that. That was such a feeling from within. During my wedding, I made this reference to her, a bracelet. I found the bracelet and I held it in. I just have to say that my baby’s birth was so, so spiritual in so many ways. It was one of the most incredible things that had ever happened to me. I was in another world. I was truthfully in another world. I see sometimes people post on Facebook and ask how a body can survive without an epidural and all of these things. You are not in this world. You are bringing life into this world. This is incredible and our bodies can do this because it’s not Pitocin contractions. It’s really your body that creates them. I was singing through my contractions. I picked up my baby and she was holding me tight. I was having contractions and I was holding her. It just was such a magical moment bringing another baby. I was talking to her and I was telling her how we were working as a team. I had to drop off my daughter. Luckily, my girlfriend gave me the code to her house. Otherwise, they both had their phones off her husband and her. I’m literally walking into their bedroom. It’s 5:00 in the morning. I’m like, “Here’s my baby. Please.” Meagan: I’ve gotta go. I’ve gotta go, yeah. Olga: They were 5 minutes from the hospital. We get to the hospital. It’s 6:00 in the morning. They check me. I’m 6 centimeters dilated and 100% effaced. She checks me and they admit me. They then say, “Okay. You are admitted.” From triage, my doula joins me. I really didn’t love the nurse and my doula was like, “Don’t worry. They change shifts at 7.” At 6:45, I feel like I have to push. I’m so grateful that my doula was there because she advocated for me. Again, I was so educated. I thought that you could advocate for yourself. No, you cannot. You are in a different world. Meagan: It’s really hard. Really hard. Olga: So I’m like, “Elizabeth, I have to push.” I’m on my knees, singing through it. She’s like, “You have to check her.” They were like, “No. It’s not possible.” The lady comes in. She checks me. She’s like, “It’s not possible. Her water is intact.” Then, the physician assistant comes in who works with my doctor is like, “That’s not her water. That is her butt.” I guess it feels the same to them. Meagan: Squishy. Olga: The water did break. There was no water at that point. It was squishy, yeah. Crazy thing is, here we are. I’m ready to push. We need to put the epidural in. My doctor is away because he didn’t realize that would progress so fast. Everybody is waiting for him. Everybody is freaking out. I don’t know anything because I am in a different world, but my husband told me that everybody was freaking out. There were a hundred doctors in there, a breech VBAC. What is going on? Meagan: Have to see it. Olga: Yeah, and so until my doctor got there, my husband always talks about how once he got there, the atmosphere was like, okay. Everything is going to be okay. That’s the other thing. You can ask your doctor if he is going to be there for the whole pushing stage. My Dr. Brock was there for an hour and a half while I was pushing. He held my hand. He talked to me. It was just so incredible. I did have an epidural. I dilated to 10 without an epidural, then got an epidural and pushed for an hour and a half. I had the most beautiful, amazing beautiful baby girl. We named her Frankie because she was frank breech. We were so interested to know. Is Frank the name of the guy who invented frank breech? We weren’t sure. We later found out that frank just means stubborn breech. Meagan: Oh, I didn’t even know that. Olga: Frank breech is stubborn breech. She is so stubborn. She picked her own name. It was already sort of part of our list of names. That was the breech VBAC story. So then when my little stubborn baby– oh. The one thing I do want to mention here is with breech, if your baby is breech for a long time, even if they change to head down, make sure you have them check for hip dysplasia. I do think a lot of people don’t know. I didn’t know about this at all. It’s completely normal. My baby had hip dysplasia because she was breech basically the whole pregnancy. This is really important because I think that a lot of people think that if they had a C-section, their babies wouldn’t have hip dysplasia, but that’s not the case. It’s how the baby is inside of you. Their hips just don’t develop. My baby was then placed in a pelvic harness. That harness imitates what a head-down baby down inside of your body and the hip develops normally. Most times, it resolves on its own. You still have to follow up, but my recommendation is to just make sure that you have them check for it because I am in all of these Facebook groups with people who didn’t get checked and they, unfortunately, have a much more complicated time fixing it a little bit later. That was definitely an adjustment and journey on its own. When my little baby was 8 months, we surprisingly got pregnant with our little gift, baby boy. We always wanted three kids, so he just had his own surprise timing. We did try pretty hard with our first two girls. We didn’t use IVF or any of the other procedures, but it still took us a while to get pregnant. So it definitely was a surprise pregnancy with our third. He is such a miracle. I had a very difficult first trimester and now, thinking back about it, it could have been because he is a boy. I don’t know if there are gender stereotypes in pregnancy but I had a lot of bleeding. I really almost lost him a few times. One of the times there was so much blood. I still cannot believe that he survived. He is such a miraculous little baby. I just cannot be happier having him. He is my light. He is 9 months actually, so 9 months in and 9 months out. Meagan: Crazy. Olga: Yeah. I had an unmedicated birth with him. I think one of the reasons that he wanted to be born so fast is because I think he was scared that Dr. Brock would retire. He knew that I had to have that birth. So I got pregnant. Again, I was very, very active. I obviously had two little kids who still really needed me. I did walk 3 miles. This was much harder in the sense that there are two kids that need you who are so young, but my husband and I both worked as a team. We made sure that I had the space to– and again, you have to advocate for yourself. I talked to my husband. I said, “I need this time to walk because that’s how I feel like I am preparing for this birth.” We hired a doula again. One thing that I would say is that this time, my doula had to be gone at 41 weeks. She had a scheduled vacation. I found a backup doula with her help. They partnered together so that if I would go past 41 weeks which in my book is a little bit more complicated birth because the baby will be bigger naturally, so I wanted to make sure that I didn’t feel rushed. You have to be so thoughtful about ensuring what you need for a good birth. Set yourself up for success. I didn’t want to have any pressure. I had two amazing doulas this time. One of them was at my first birth and the same woman, Elizabeth, ended up being at this birth too. I was doing all of the same things– chiropractic care, acupuncture, listening to all of the podcasts again because this time it wasn’t a breech baby. He was head down and I wanted to have an unmedicated birth. The book that I read both times was Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth. This time, what really stuck out to me what, I don’t know if you remember the chapter where she was developing this mantra of, “I’m going to be big”. Essentially, what she was talking about is that you can channel your vagina to open up wider to let your baby out so that you don’t have any tears. I didn’t have tears with either of my births and I do say that my doctor told me that that’s kind of on him. I said to him, “Dr. Brock, what can I do to prepare to not have tears?” He said, “It’s all on me. We have to go nice and slow, nice and slow.” It was so helpful for me to just channel that mantra and I did use that during my birth with my son. I’m going to be big. It also did take my mind off the ring of fire and all of those things that people talk about that sound scary. I wasn’t thinking about that because I was chanting almost like, “I’m gonna be big. I’m gonna big.”Long story short, at my 39-week appointment, leading up to it again, I was 4 centimeters dilated. I guess that’s how my body processes it. We were talking about doing a membrane sweep at 40 weeks. I was contemplating whether I wanted to do it or not. I really wanted a no-interventions birth. I decided that at 40 weeks, I would do it. I was going to my 39-week appointment and because I was already 4 centimeters dilated, I was a little bit nervous. We lived an hour and a half from the hospital because now we had moved further out. I was a little bit nervous to be driving and also, we don’t have family living nearby and my girlfriend couldn’t really take on two more kids who are so young, we got a sibling doula. Meagan: Yes. Olga: Our goal as a sibling doula was anytime I had my appointments, she would come and cover the kids at an extra cost so that she could get to know them. My sibling doula was amazing. She was with my kids. I said to my husband, “Do you mind driving me? You can take calls while I am in my appointments.” So he would drive me to the hospital, and just in case, we took our bags everywhere except, and that’s a tip that I actually wanted to write down to tell people, except my colostrum which I’ll address in a second. We took the bags with us. I had my acupuncture in the morning and then I had my chiropractor appointment so I’m super aligned. I go to my OB appointment. I’m 39+3. He’s like, “Well, you’re in labor. You’re 6 centimeters dilated. Go to the hospital right now.” He’s like, “I’m going to break your water.” To me, those were such trigger words. I didn’t because I felt like my baby got stuck the first time. I listened to an episode that you had earlier on at some point and you had a side note about never letting someone break your water until they check the baby’s positioning. Meagan: Yes. It’s a check mark that you have to check, where are we feeling? What is this position? Where are we at? If it happens spontaneously, it happens spontaneously which was done for you the second time, but the first time, it was maybe a fore bag. Olga: Exactly. Meagan: And then they broke your main bag, but it is. It is so important to cool it and wait. Olga: Totally and I think something you said, it’s like a lubricant for your body. You need that liquid to be able to have the baby get into the best position possible. So I was really not into the idea of breaking the water. I walked around. I called my doula. He just said, “Go to the hospital. Call them.” I did take about an hour to decide to go to the hospital. I didn’t even though this doctor who already delivered my baby, I still just wanted to check in with myself to see if I was comfortable. At the end of the day, here’s what I arrived at. It’s not the right decision for everybody, but for me, it was the right decision to go to the hospital because my other two babies, which was my biggest fear– I actually did a fear release as well two days before. There’s a technique that you guys shared on YouTube. There’s a YouTube video. My biggest fear was not taking care of my other girls because they were so young. I had a whole tree of neighbors that were going to come in until the sibling doula comes in and all of those things. Dr. Brock did say. He said, “Your baby is -1 and already 6 centimeters positioned.” He’s like, “I’m not going to make it to the hospital.” I was like, “What if I get a hotel room across the street?” He’s like, “You are not going to make it to the hospital. The baby is low.” So I decided that for me, for my well-being of being in the right mental space, this is the right time because my baby’s are taken care of. There is a sibling doula right there. We went to the hospital. He took his time to come in too which I loved. He gave my body natural time to progress. I requested a pump right away. I was walking. I was bouncing on the ball. I was pumping, trying to get the labor started naturally because there were no contractions still which was really frustrating to me because again, I wanted no interventions. So here we are. He comes in and I’m like, “Dr. Brock, give me the answers to two questions. Number one, what is baby’s positioning?” He checks it. It was LOA. It was the most perfect position. And number two, I said, “If you break my water, and my labor doesn’t start,” because remember with my second, when my water broke, it took almost 24 hours to labor. I was like, “I do not want to feel rushed. I also want to have the chance to leave the hospital if I want to go home and labor at home.” He said, “I guarantee you.” I already knew his word is right because he delivered my other baby. He’s like, “I can guarantee you that you can leave the hospital. I can guarantee you that there are no interventions that we will implement,” because I also did not want Pitocin at all. So I let him break my water and literally, things start within seconds. I think he broke my water and an hour and a half later, my baby was there. Right away, maybe 20 minutes later, I was like, “I have to poop,” and he was there. He’s like, “Do not let her go to the bathroom!” He checks me and I was already 8 at that time. It went pretty fast from 6 to 8 to 10 again. My doula was on the way. This time, my husband and I were such a team. I feel like the first time, we were both so scared. We just didn’t know and we didn’t feel as comfortable. This time, we were swaying together. I just feel so appreciative of the moments we shared just the two of us. My doctor comes in. He’s like, “Okay, it’s time to bring this baby to the world. Get on your back.” I’m like, “No, can I please have a few more contractions standing up?” He’s like, “Eventually, you’ll have to get in bed.” I was like, “Okay,” because I trust my doctor, but I was disappointed for sure. I probably would have loved to be standing, but once I got in bed and laid down, I actually did feel better. I did enjoy delivering in that position until the last second. I laid down and had about four pushes. I kept saying to myself, “I’m going to be huge.” I did want to make a joke to my doctor. I’m like, “Is this too late for an epidural?” but I didn’t say it because you’re kind of in a different world. You’re almost in your own little world. I delivered my baby boy without any medication and I have to say that the recovery, even with the epidural for pushing, the recovery with unmedicated birth is the most surreal thing on the planet. With breech, so many people ran in right away to check her because one thing that people might not know about breech is that when baby is coming down, there is always poop, the meconium from the baby. My doctor was telling the nurse, “This is normal. You don’t need to freak out.” I think that with head-down babies, they are worried about meconium being in the water. With breech babies, it is always in because they are pushing in the stomach as the butt comes out. Here, they left us alone for two hours. I was telling Dr. Brock. I’m like, “How big is the baby?” He’s like, “Well, you can’t have it all. We haven’t even weighed him. I don’t know how big he is.” He ended up being 8 pounds, 2 ounces. Which, they did. For two hours, nobody bothered us. We were just in this peaceful moment with my husband and me. It came full circle from all the interventions and everybody there and not having a moment to ourselves to just being there by ourselves the three of us and having this most incredible, peaceful experience. It was really something. I really wish for everybody to experience that. The recovery, again, I was ready to go hiking that afternoon. It was so different. I think I did push myself a little too much right away primarily because I have two little, young kids. It’s good to also let yourself recover, but it was also so, so, so special to have this. Sorry, one last thing that I will say is that breastfeeding was really important to me. I had some challenges in the past, so I had an amazing lactation consultant who I saw at 37 weeks. I also took some breastfeeding classes, but she told me about expressing colostrum starting early on. After 37 weeks, it is safe because baby is sort of technically full-term. I brought this colostrum that I froze starting at 37 weeks. The other thing is– the lactation consultant didn’t say this, but we know that nipple stimulation is a good thing. Meagan: It’s an inducer. Olga: It’s an inducer, exactly. So every day, and ti was amazing for my kids to see me do things with my breast without the baby there so they weren’t hating on the baby for taking my attention away. I would just sit there in the playroom with them while they would play and I would say to them, “This is how mommy will feed the baby.” I would express colostrum. I froze so much colostrum. Every day, I honestly wish I did more of it because as you deliver this baby, there’s no milk yet, you can take that day to recover and sleep if your partner is there. My baby had jaundice so we had to have him under lights. The nurses would take him, but I was able to give him colostrum. With jaundice, it’s very important that they eat a lot. I didn’t have to give him any formula because they had so much colostrum. I just highly, highly recommend it. My sister was able to go back. As I said, we didn’t take it with us. She and her boyfriend went back and brought it to the hospital frozen. Check with your hospital policies. Ours allowed. Cedars allowed you to bring it. It was so great because it allowed my body to rest for the first 24 hours, my baby to get a lot of colostrum, and I didn’t have the pressure of immediately breastfeeding or all of those things because I had it frozen. And I think the breast stimulation actually helped my body dilate to 6 centimeters by the time I was 39 weeks which I think was obviously awesome. Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Olga: That’s it. That’s my story. I have three amazing kids. They make me the person I am and I’m just so grateful to them for choosing me to be their mommy. Meagan: Being a mom really is amazing. I love all of your stories. You had a Cesarean, medicated breech, and unmedicated. Each one morphed you into this person and this parent that you are today. First of all, congratulations on all of your babies and thank you for sharing. Just along the way, I wanted to give a little bullet point of things to remind people of. I’m sure this podcast will be one of those saved episodes for the future. But some really cool things that you brought up is the sibling doula. I have been a doula for people and they have had sibling doulas and it is amazing. It’s absolutely amazing. It brings so much comfort because when you feel like you have to be mom, it’s really hard to be in labor world and to be doing that. I love that you had a sibling doula. I love that we talked about breaking waters. It’s something that I am passionate about and I think it’s because although they didn’t break my water, it broke spontaneously, but I had poorly positioned babies and a lack of knowledge of getting baby in a better position. So if you’re not checking the box of, “Hey, my contraction pattern is good. I’m close. I have good head compression. My baby is in a good spot,” it may not be the most ideal thing to do. And then sometimes you do. You break your water and it’s a game changer and that is the best thing for you. So I loved that you talked about that. I loved that you talked about not preparing and then preparing. And I loved so much that in the end of your pregnancy with your second that you went into this space called the bubble. We go into our bubble and we get rid of all of the negativity, all of the hate, all of the news, and stuff that’s going to stress us out and all of that. I personally had to do that unfortunately with my mom. That was really, really difficult and it’s really hard to do that to someone that you love, but unfortunately, she was bringing negativity into my space. Remember to protect your space. Those people love you. They’re not going to hate you. They’re not going to never talk to you again, but it’s okay to turn social media off, turn text messages off and go into that space because if you can enter that space in that really amazing, powerful zone, it can make all the world of a difference. You educated. You listened to the podcast. So many amazing things. So, thank you so much for sharing with us today and I’m so happy that this one is kicking off the holiday season for us. Olga: I’m so honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for doing this and starting The VBAC Link. It just is such an incredible resource and I would definitely not have had the birth I had if it wasn’t for you guys. Meagan: Oh, well thank you so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands