Sarah David II, the leader as philosopher, learner and listener

This is Chris’s second podcast with Sarah. In the first, which is episode seven of this series, you can hear her backstory, some of her work-related achievements, and her approach to learning and to self-care.They gave this podcast the somewhat ambitious title of “the leader as philosopher, learner and listener” and imagined that it might be more of a conversation than an interview. Sarah has said previously that our politicians are no longer philosophers. She believes this matters because we live in a volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous (VUCA) world and things are grey rather than black and white. Philosophers embrace the idea that changing our mind is a legitimate, in fact healthy, thing to do. And politics matters more than we might imagine: politicians enact the laws that govern our everyday lives.Chris thinks that there are parallels in business. His favourite quote is from Emmy van Deurzen, who is an existential psychotherapist, and she says “Passive living comes easily; one can always fall back on it. Actively living requires much practice and study, as does any art.”Sarah is a big fan of the stoics. Stoicism acknowledges that life is a struggle and rarely goes according to plan. It helps her to appreciate the highs but not get too attached to them and to weather the lows in the knowledge that they too will pass. We have a tendency to ‘gloss over’ things when they aren’t OK and to say that they’ll be better in the future. In reality when one challenge goes away another will replace it.Chris would say that it helps in an organisation if the leader has a clear sense of purpose and can articulate what the current struggle is for. Without such meaning the organisation is in danger of becoming a product of the system in which it operates. Chris cites Tracy Allen (episode 12) as such a leader.For Sarah values and purpose help with prioritisation. However, she understands why some people don’t have clarity around values and purpose; she says “it’s scary.” Chris says it’s what Jean Paul Sartre would have described as “existential angst”, the anxiety caused by a person’s awareness of her unlimited freedom and the corresponding responsibility.In his book ‘Compassionate Leadership’ Chris includes ‘a spiritual journey’ under routes to development and asks Sarah where she is on that journey. Buddhism and the stoics have been reference points for her, along with Alain de Botton, Christian Tippett and David Whyte.Chris describes himself right now as a ‘Christian Existentialist.’ He believes in God, but also believes we need to take personal responsibility. He has found the books of Richard Rohr helpful, along with a lot of one-to-one conversations. He has come to a point where he can be comfortable with uncertainty.Sarah says that “a lot of therapy” has helped her, as have podcasts, in that you hear people’s thought processes out loud.When it comes to helping leaders clarify their values and purpose, Sarah sometimes uses the question “Which are those moments in your life when you have most thrived?”Beyond philosophy, there’s a whole lot more for a leader to master. Chris makes the distinction between informational learning – lectures, training, what passes for learning in most universities and business schools – and transformational learning – learning that enhances our ability to handle complex thoughts and ideas, and to consider our thoughts themselves objectively.Sarah says that she thinks this idea is useful and that transformational learning helps us close the gap between the knowing and the doing. For each person, the nature of the transformational experience that is most effective will be different, but what is important is that we get out there and experiment. Sarah recommends the writing of Seth Godin, who writes so well about mustering the courage to experiment.Both Sarah and Chris agree that talking with friends can be...